Windshield frame to targa top seal removal., Scary Idea I'm Sure... Options

[Gint]

Outstanding!!!

This has got to be added to the classic threads....

If the admins think this is worthy of classic status, one of them can PM me and I can create a post with attached photos just like on my blog. I can't always guarantee my web server will be up as hosting that page as much as I would like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

The link isn't working now...

Please post the pics and write up here and I will move it to the classics forum. I'll send a PM. And I'll also change the title of this thread.

[Allan]

I don't know how Mike.

Tutorial perhaps?

Remember, I hang out with Slits and Aaron on the board.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Gint]

I don't know how Mike.

Tutorial perhaps?

Remember, I hang out with Slits and Aaron on the board.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My previous post was directed to Richard...

[Allan]

My previous post was directed to Richard...

Gotcha... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

[Richard Casto]

As Gint noticed, my web server is not reliable (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif), so this is probably a better home for this. He also said he is going to move this into the classics section. So over the next few posts, I am going to replicate the info from here...

http://motorsport.zyyz.com/project_914_13.htm


Removal of the Front Targa Seal

Ok, it's time to tackle the windshield seal. This is the one that runs along the top and down the sides. Along the top it acts as a seal between the Targa top and the windshield frame. Along the sides, between the frame and the doors. The issue here is that this part is no longer available from Porsche. There is at least one reproduction that is available, but I believe there are supply and quality issues with that seal. NOS seals go for quite a bit on eBay. So if you need to remove your seal (as I do), you want to try to not tear it up.

Ok, before we go much further I have to admit that I did break the seal into two pieces (passenger side) during the removal process. However, I do feel that after figuring out how to do this, now would be able to remove it without breaking or tearing it. I was able to get the driver side OK after I learned how to do it on the passenger side. Hopefully these instructions will help you successfully remove yours without destroying it.

Ok, now to get down to business, first I didn't realize that there are actually two seals around the windshield. There is a lower seal that removes pretty easily. It only runs the length of the top of the windshield frame. The upper seal runs both the length of the top as well as down both side of the windshield frame.



Hard to see in this photo, but there are two different seals here.



Here you can see me removing the lower seal. It only runs along the bottom of the top part of the main Targa seal.



Note the profile. It sort of slips up under (I believe) the bottom part of the upper seal. It is easy to remove.

[Richard Casto]

Before I started, I had no real idea on how the upper seal was shaped and attached to the body. The upper seal looks to have an embedded metal part that both reinforces the seal as well as acts as a clamp. It connects to the windshield frame in a tongue and groove fashion. The seal (and metal clamp) act as the groove and the windshield frame as the tongue. As far as I can tell, there are no adhesives used to attach the seal to the car (either on the top or side)

I started out by experimenting and found that I could insert a thin screwdriver between the seal and the frame along the top. I suspect that a thin putty knife would work better, but my screwdriver was working well for me, so I kept at it. By doing this, I was able to increase the gap. Do this slowly and a little at a time. You may also want to just use your hand periodically and wiggle the seal top and down a bit to help break it free from the frame.



Screw driver going in at this point. I was nervous as I had no idea how it was put together at this point.



But it did seem to be working.



And I was able to pull it away from the frame a bit.



I also tried to insert my finger and pull the lower part of the seal as well. The idea here is to pull the seal straight out, but do it by applying the pressure from the inside out vs. trying to just pull directly on the exterior of the seal. Go slow, take your time, don't force anything if you are doing it right, you should hear the seal clamp loosen and break away from the frame section by section.



Eventually you will get a section to separate totally from the frame. One this happens, you should be able to work the rest of the top away from the frame pretty easily. Work you way right up to the intersection between the top and side parts of the seal on each side.



At this point you need to remove the upright trim on the inside of the windshield frame. On my 1972 model, there were three plastic caps that hid three #2 Phillips screws. There is also a small #1 Philips screw right at the intersection of the top and side parts of the seal. The small #1 is easy to miss. A PO for my car had tried to solve a leak I this area by applying some rubber sealant. The screws were buried under all of this.

[Richard Casto]

Once this is done, you should be able to see both the inside and outside part of the aluminum C shaped channel that holds this part of the seal. Ok, now for the hard part. You will have two issues here. First, the seal may not want to budge due to general friction and the fact that it has to slide through a tight curve near the top. The other (which I think is the real reason it is hard to remove this seal) is that when the seal is installed at the factory, the C channel is "staked" on the inside in a few places to prevent the seal from sliding after it has been installed.







These photos where taken AFTER this was all done, but it shows you what the "stakes" in the channel look like. Mine have already been bent out so that the seal would slide out.

[Richard Casto]

You will need to pull back the seal with your fingers enough to inspect the entire length of it on the interior side of the seal and find where it has been staked. I had three stakes on one side (spread out along the length) and two on the other (both near the end of the seal). So I assume they can be anywhere and have a indeterminate number of them. You will need to undo the staking enough so that the seal will be able to slide along the C channel. I don't have any photos of this part, but I took a wide blade screw driver and inserted it into the channel and dug and pried enough to allow the seal to slide. You may really have to dig in there to get enough of a bite to undo the staking. While my seal is of average shape, the inside part of this seemed to be the most flexible and sturdy part of the entire seal and I was able to really dig around at the channel without damaging the seal. I suspect this is because this part of the seal is typically hidden away from damaging UV light, etc. by the interior trim.

I don't know how cheap or easily available a replacement is for this aluminum channel. If it is cheap, I would not worry about what you do to it to get it to the point that the seal will freely slide. I haven't tried it yet, but I suspect that if you don't mangle it much, that you can bend it back and reused it. The part you bend should be hidden by the trim once reinstalled.



To help get the seal to slide, you will to lubricate it. I used a child's medicine syringe (available at a pharmacy or grocery store) and soapy water. I used regular glycerin dish soap and just a small bit of water. Whatever lubricant you use, it should be water based and not petroleum based (such as mineral oil).



You should see if you can wiggle the seal a bit in and out (perpendicular to the channel) to see if you can loosen it up a bit where it might be stuck to the channel. Then you can try to use the syringe to squirt the soapy water in. If you get it in just the right place up near the top, you should be able to get a stream to run the entire length of the seal and drain out the bottom. Keep at it until you feel you have the soapy water between the seal and the channel along the entire length. It should run freely once it is loosed up.
After you have it lubricated, you may need to wiggle the intersection area between the top and side a bit to break it free from the frame as well. Be very careful as this is a very fragile area on the entire seal. At this point, you can start to try to slide the seal.
There are a few key things to remember at this point...

(1) Do not whatsoever try to pull the seal by grabbing a hold of the area around the intersection of the top and side piece. These pieces have been extruded and/or molded separately and then connected during the manufacturing process. They are weak where they have been joined together.

(2) Start pushing from the bottom, but then work your way up along the entire length by applying pressure on the seal in the direction that you want it to move. Wiggle as you go and apply additional lubrication as needed. Keep repeating this motion and if all is good, it should start to move.

(3) If it is not sliding something is wrong. Check to make sure you have undone the "staking" enough and that you can wiggle the seal along its length. If it is lubricated enough and has broken free, you should hear and see the soapy water squish out of the channel all along its length.

[Richard Casto]

I started on my passenger side first. With much effort, I was able to get the seal to start to move. I should have realized that something was wrong as I was REALLY having to push hard from the bottom and was tempted to pull from the top.



I then made the mistake of trying to pull from the top. I was trying to not apply much pressure, but I ended up causing the seal to separate at the joint. Don't do what I did. It was a tough way to learn that lesson. DON'T PULL ON THAT JOINT.



At this point I felt I was pushing harder than I should need. I realized that I had not undone the "staking" enough, so I fixed that and added more lubricant. The seal then slid out much easier and without any pulling needed to get it to move. Once I was able to get about three inches of the seal out of the top, I felt I was able to safely pull a bit from the top as well as push from the bottom to speed up the process. Bottom line, if it doesn't slide out, then something is wrong. Don't force it.



The aluminum channel is held in with a few #1 Phillips screws. I removed mine and here are some of the stakes in the channel.

After I realized that my impatience was the reason I broke the seal and that once the staking had been properly undone and the channel lubricated it slid out without having to pull at the top, I decided to take it a bit easier on the driver side of the seal. With the experience of the passenger side, I was able to repeat the process on the driver side, but without breaking the seal on this side. If I was to do it all over again, I am positive that I could have remove the seal without breaking it.



The keys are to go slow, take your time and don't force anything.

Thats it! Enjoy.

[John]

I have never removed one by sliding it out of the channel.

I make sure the two corner screws are out, then I work the bottom of each side out of the channel and it will "zip" right out of the channel with little effort/force.

Be sure to get the seal loose past the crimped area before pulling.

They come out much better/easier when nobody has painted it in place.

Once the sides are loose, the top removes easily. Be very careful in the corners. I haven't broken one yet and I have removed some pretty crusty ones.

When it is time to reinstall, you must slide it down the channels, but on removal, I believe you stand a larger chance of ripping the seal if you try sliding it without lubrication.

I use P-80 rubber lubricant to install them and it works very well.

just my $0.02

[Gint]

I use P-80 rubber lubricant to install them and it works very well.

You mean this stuff?

http://www.ipcol.com/prod-p80.htm

[Richard Casto]

I make sure the two corner screws are out, then I work the bottom of each side out of the channel and it will "zip" right out of the channel with little effort/force.

John, I think I know what you are saying. I guess it depends upon how flexiable the rubber it. It would be interesting to have those who have done this a number of times respond to see if they slide it out, or pop it loose from the channel like you did.

When it is time to reinstall, you must slide it down the channels, but on removal, I believe you stand a larger chance of ripping the seal if you try sliding it without lubrication.

I think you would absolutely tear it up if you didn't lubricate it. You have to remove the staking and lubricate. Once that was done it slides right out with pressure from the bottom and along the length of it seal. I didn't bend back the staking enough on my first attempt and that is how I broke the one side. As with most things, the second time is so much easier!

[John]

I use P-80 rubber lubricant to install them and it works very well.

You mean this stuff?

http://www.ipcol.com/prod-p80.htm

That is the stuff. It works great. I found it by accident at work while the shop was trying to slide 2 1/2" ID water discharge hose onto 2 1/2" OD rollers. It went MUCH better with the lubricant.

[dinomium]

cool thread, now if we could just find a source for some new seals!!

[markb]

I also have used the "zip" method on 2 or 3 that I have removed. Worked fine, no rips.

[Gint]

Off to the Classic Threads Forum!