Project Turbo 914 begins..., (yes, I know you can't turbo a 914) Options

[ottox914]

...and the other side of the intercooler showing the routing to the hats on top of the ITB's. From there the charge air pushed thru the ITB's, and then thru Len's work of art heads, bounding off the JE pistons, making some MassIVe power to rocket thru the cones.

[corsepervita]

At first when I saw this thread the first 5 or so pages I was going "uhhhh" and now that i've finished it i'm going "OHHHHHHHHH man, nice!"

this looks like a lot of fun!

[moparrob]

Wow! That build has got me mesmerized. I really think that I want to try to tackle a similar build for my new, engine-less acquisition I picked up several weeks ago. In fact I went out today and bought Jay Miller's book "Turbo - Real World High Performance Turbocharger Systems" just to re-familiarize myself with the newer technology which currently exists -as compared to my 25 year old prior research. A lot has changed, and I realize I have a lot to learn.

Obviously, I have a lot of questions for you but I will not bother you with any specific questions until I have acquired a sufficient baseline of knowledge to properly phrase my questions. I did want to ask you though, knowing what you know now, would you change anything in the way you designed the project?

For instance, would you have chosen to mount the turbo elsewhere (even assuming you would need to build your own header?) Or would you have chosen a different turbo (assuming money was not an object within the range of reasonableness)? Would you suggest a different intercooler or mounting location, or perhaps a different cooling system?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Can't wait to see videos of it running!

Rob Rose

[nein14]

Wow! That build has got me mesmerized. I really think that I want to try to tackle a similar build for my new, engine-less acquisition I picked up several weeks ago. In fact I went out today and bought Jay Miller's book "Turbo - Real World High Performance Turbocharger Systems" just to re-familiarize myself with the newer technology which currently exists -as compared to my 25 year old prior research. A lot has changed, and I realize I have a lot to learn.

Obviously, I have a lot of questions for you but I will not bother you with any specific questions until I have acquired a sufficient baseline of knowledge to properly phrase my questions. I did want to ask you though, knowing what you know now, would you change anything in the way you designed the project?

For instance, would you have chosen to mount the turbo elsewhere (even assuming you would need to build your own header?) Or would you have chosen a different turbo (assuming money was not an object within the range of reasonableness)? Would you suggest a different intercooler or mounting location, or perhaps a different cooling system?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Can't wait to see videos of it running!

Rob Rose

It's been done before get a copy of June 02' Excellence magazine 2.0 4 cyl. w/CIS injection and a K 26 turbo still runnning strong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[ottox914]

That CIS car was kind of the inspiration to do what I have done.

What would I change? How much time and money do you have?

I designed the system with the ITB's because I bought those and put them on my 2.0, along with the SDS, thinking I would just build one of Jakes 2316 motors. But that plan got sidetracked with all this turbo silliness. So ITB's are really not needed.

In my perfect world, my perfect system uses Chris Foley's top mount cooling fan, (which is only now coming available), a fabricated even length exhaust to mount the turbo high and in the center of the car, so the oil can drain back in to the oil chimney on our cars. From there shoot the charge air from the turbo into a single throttle body mounted on the end of a subi intercooler ducted and mounted over the CF fan. Yes, this would be pre-heating the engine cooling air, but that IC seems well oversized for the job, I don't think the temp rise would be all that bad. Plus that CF system moves alot of air. Changing the belt would be a pain, and you'd have to do some work to the exhaust to keep the temps down in this area. From the intercooler some fabricated "stacks" would need to be made to support the IC, take the charge air into the heads and provide a place to mount the injectors, which could be mounted high up next to the IC to provide more distance for the fuel/air mixture to tumble and mix, and perhaps add a little cooling effect before getting into the head. A single exhaust from the turbo out the car, and as long as we are dreaming and fabricating here, you could make a heater tube wrapping around the single exhaust and blow some warm air back in the cabin. Turbo selection would depend on the motor you were dressing with all this cool stuff.

Sadly, the CF system was still a dream when I started the project, I don't have a shop full of cool machine tools and pipe benders, and I needed to build the car with as much off the shelf stuff that I already owned to keep the $$$ in line.

Maybe someday...

[ottox914]

Spent the 1/2 the day in Wayzata, MN got about 1/2 a motor built. Case is together, cam/crank/rods are all happy and smoothly moving about. I felt like a bit of a chump, as 95% of the work we did I could have knocked out on my own. Its that last 5% I need to be thankful for the help with. And some of the cool tools Dick has makes that 5% seem just sooooooo easy. But w/out the tool, sooooooo hard. Everything we have measured is nearly dead on for clearance. A good thing with the amount of new and machined parts going into this thing. And some of the BTDT that Dick brings is amazing. Setting the end play for the crank. He eyeballed it, measured a couple shims I brought, we screwed it all together, he grabs some crazy measuring tool, we check the endplay, and BAM, its right at the factory spec. First test fit. no real drama. It just works out. We caught a couple parts related problems that again, with his selection of cool tools and measuring devices, cost us 5-10 minutes, where as I might have caught the problem, and spend hours figuring out if my fix would work or cause more trouble. Should have a complete short block home in rice lake tomorrow night. Still need to dress it in cooling tin once I get it home, get some additional gauges wired into the car, get the engine and trans ready to install, so plenty of work left to do on my week of "mancation". Will it run by the weekend? I don't know, but as is usual for me, I'm going to take my time and try to get it as right as I can the first time before turning the key to wait for that never ending 20 min of cam break in.

[ottox914]

Monday morning. Full boxes, empty case.

[ottox914]

Tuesday night. (mostly) Empty boxes and full case. Now on to valve train geo...

[ottox914]

UPDATE: spent some time in the garage today, not as much as I might have liked, but as I noted before, I don't have all the parts needed to get it all back in the car, so whats the big deal anyway? Checked the valve lift and push rod tube length. When a new cam goes in, with a different base circle from stock, or different valves go in, (different stem length) you need to check and set up the correct push rod length. A dial gauge is mounted on the head to measure valve lift in the same plane as the valve stem. Insert an adjustable push rod with the same ends as the ones you will be building/using. Put the rocker arms on. Cycle the engine around by hand so the valve being measured goes from fully open, (zero out the gauge) to fully closed. This reading should be within 5% of the stated lift value on your cam card. (Per Jake) If this is not the case, take it all apart, and either make the adjustable push rod longer or shorter, rig it all up, test it again, and see what you get. If the lift value you get is less than the prior attempt, you adjusted the push rod the wrong way. Do it all again. A quarter turn makes a big difference. I ended up with a reading of .483, against a stated lift of .500, so as I was inside that 5% range, called it good enough and stopped. So now I know the cam will be performing to its full potential. Those Honda guys with DOHC heads don't know what they are missing here.

Next is to set up the gauge again, and check for the orientation of the valve adjusters at 1/2 lift. They should look like an extension of the valve stem, going straight out from the valve, no angle. Angle = side pressure on the guides, more wear, sooner re-build. I took an old push rod, cut it in 1/2, tapped threads to match the valve adjuster. Now I can screw this on the valve adjuster, and have a better visual reference to the relationship between the adjuster and the valve. If at 1/2 lift, (1/2 of your actual lift, not stated lift) the line is not straight between the valve stem and the PR tube/valve adjuster, you need to shim the rocker arm assembly out to get the correct geometry. So take off all the measuring gear, take the valve train off, add a shim of known thickness to each side of the rocker arm assembly, re-assemble the dial indicator, and check it all again. I haven't gotten this done yet, but maybe tomorrow, after wrapping up a paneling project at Nan's dads place.

Did the CR math, taking into account the bore, stroke, piston dish, deck height, chamber volume, and came up with 8.95:1. The prior CR was around 9:1, and with the heavy cast pistons (euro p/c's and light deck to the heads) and high rings, and 11psi, there was no damage to the pistons or rings when I tore it down. The pistons were ordered to be 8.5:1, but with no base shims or head gaskets, the CR got a little higher, which is fine by me. I expect 9:1 with the forged J & E's will be just fine up to the 15psi I hope to run once things are all broken in and tuned well.

Thats it for tonight.

[ottox914]

UPDATE: threw my back out last week, not much progress. Feeling better the last couple days, got the new CHT/EGT gauge in, new oil temp/pressure gauges, working on new harness belts for both seats. Should have them done and the interior back together by tomorrow night.

Its gonna happen this weekend. I have friday off to work on the motor, and sat/sun are open, with the exception of fathers day dinner with my dad.

So some questions about firing the beast up-

I have plenty of Brad Penn 30w break in and Mahle filters. I was planning on getting the motor buttoned up, soaking a filter full of 30w, filling the crank case. Since the SDS handles the spark, I have a filler plug in the dizzy hole. I was thinking of pulling that off, and getting a thick screwdriver, cutting off the handle, putting it in a corded drill, and spinning the motor over to circulate oil. Sound good? Should I spin it clock-wise, or counter clock wise? Once I was certain there was oil everywhere, add plugs, transmission, and install. After install, I was thinking of using the drill trick to spin it over some more, to get oil back to the turbo. I know it'll be harder with the plugs in, but its a pain to put them in with the tin in place and the engine in. Not impossible, just a bother. I was then thinking of doing the 20 min cam break in, with the full exhaust and turbo connected, but no intercooler or charge lines. This way I can run it at 2-2500 rpm, watch the gauges, and have an easier time keeping the AFR in line. I can also sync the ITB's at this time with no turbo hats on them. I'll have a couple small, high volume fans blowing on the motor topside, and a couple of those "Service Master" big air movers blowing air under the car as well. Should be a loud, scary 20 min.

I'm thinking slightly lean is better than pig rich, so I think I'll be shooting for a steady 15 to 16:1 or so AFR. Would leaner be better? If I could see oil temps around 200-225, that'd be great, as I don't plan to hook up the extra remote cooler until the 2nd oil change, to keep any metal bits or assembly lube out of the cooler. I'll be starting with the CHT under #3 plug, as that is where the CHT for the ecu is. I think I'd be looking for around 350 steady here. I'll be watching EGT as well, but not sure which header to put that on. I was thinking 3, since the CHT would be there, but have read that checking the header with the most bends would be better, and to mount the probe as close to the exhaust port as I can. Anyone with an idea what the EGT's should be, in general?

So 20 min to break in the cam, cool down, check valve clearances, new filter and oil, connect the rest of the intercooler system, set 5psi and go for a short beating run, some 1/2 to 3/4 throttle accelerations. Do this for a couple hundred miles, check valves and one more oil change, then start adding boost and tuning the SDS for more boost and rpm with the new motor. Get a good street tune and stop by the dyno for some fine tuning and sheets to share.

Anything else I should or should not be doing that anyone can think of? (other than prayer)

[lotus_65]

good luck, david!
i'm munching popcorn, enjoying this show-

thefleur

[jd74914]

I'm thinking slightly lean is better than pig rich, so I think I'll be shooting for a steady 15 to 16:1 or so AFR. Would leaner be better?

An AFR of 15-16:1 is very lean. I would not (I want to say ever, but that's not necessarily true) go any leaner. Usually you are shooting for 13-13.5:1 for longevity. You start getting pig rich at 10-11:1. Some people shoot for 12.5:1 at WOT, it all depends what you engine likes.

Good luck!

[ottox914]

I'm thinking slightly lean is better than pig rich, so I think I'll be shooting for a steady 15 to 16:1 or so AFR. Would leaner be better?

An AFR of 15-16:1 is very lean. I would not (I want to say ever, but that's not necessarily true) go any leaner. Usually you are shooting for 13-13.5:1 for longevity. You start getting pig rich at 10-11:1. Some people shoot for 12.5:1 at WOT, it all depends what you engine likes.

Good luck!

Keep in mind this lean AFR is for the 20 min cam break in only. I certainly don't want to run 10:1 and wash the cylinders down with fuel, wreck the oil, and cause myself un-needed pain. I'll be tuning for 14-15 at steady throttle, and 11-12 at WOT with boost.

-Dave

[jaxdream]

I could be wrong , but I don't believe the drill trick will work on VW engines , maybe chevy / ford where the oil pump shaft engages the bottom of the distributor. The VW engine's oil pump is driven off the front of the cam , not the bottom of the distributor , you might wreck the brass gear on the cramk that drives the distributor. Check with others about the preoiling procedure, double check might save some grief .

My $.02

Jack / Jaxdream

[rick 918-S]

Ya, doesn't the cam drive the pump not the dizzy? You may have to pull the plugs and crank the starter. Also maybe pull the oil line off the turbo so there is zero resistance when you start to crank the engine. A couple turns should produce a shot of oil coming out the turbo oil line. Then connect the line. You shouldn't have to guess if oil made it to the turbo using this method. Just a thought. I have no first hand experience with this.

[Root_Werks]

Holy cow! TT's sure can haul a lot of 914 parts! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Nice updates to the thread. I have this one bookmarked.

[iamchappy]

Good luck with it David, I dont like the idea of running it lean for the break in, 14 or mid 14 sounds better to me.

[ottox914]

Couple of comments:

Valvetrain geo sucks eggs the first time you have to do it. Getting the pushrod length went pretty well at Dick's shop, but getting the rest of the rocker arms to the right thickness for the swivel foot adjusters, and getting the shims right for the geo has been a bit of a pain given the tools in my garage. But while its not all physically DONE, I know how it all needs to be, so things are going faster and smoother.

My comments about lean running were not clear when I posted them- I was thinking of 14-15:1 for the 20 min cam break in only. Under boosted conditions and at WOT the mixture will need to be much richer, 11.5-12:1 or so, but we'll see what the motor likes. I have oil pressure, temp, CHT and EGT as well as wideband all wired in and ready, so getting a decent street tune should be very do-able, before taking it to a dyno for that last little bit of magic.

[ottox914]

Trouble shooting help?

Got everything together, filled the engine with oil, and set up a test for oil pressure. Hooked up the engine/trans to my truck battery, hooked up a remote starter, and hit it. After 10 sec. or so, no oil coming out of the turbo oil line. Huh? So I disconnected the line from the block to a "T" fitting that supplied the oil pressure sending unit and the line to the turbo. Cranked another 10 seconds, no oil there either. Yes, the crank case is full of oil, good, green Penn break in oil.

I've got a couple of ideas of things to check, but rather then color your opinions on what to look into next, I'll leave this open-

Where would you guys look, what would you check for next, and in what order, to find out whats going on here?

[ottox914]

Found this thread:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=61381&hl=

Says basically to remove the oil filter, crank it till you have a mess, put the filter back on and live happily ever after.

Why would pulling the oil filter make a difference?

I have a Mahle filter, primed and sat overnight filled with oil on the motor now.