Twin Spark, who's done it? how? Options

[Brando]

Why would it give him a crappy 009 advance curve if they're using a mallor distributor? Besides, with a 009 you can re-spring them accordingly. You just have to keep trying and changing springs until you get the advance curve desired.

[Twystd1]

I am still trying to figure out why you want to use a dizzy and incorporate COP.

It sounds like a novel approach. Yet I don't get it. (nuthin new)

You could accomplish a BETTER end result with electronics.

Totally lap top programmable. And have the ability to change settings on the fly.

This alone would pay for itself in saved dyno time. Imagine paying for hours of dyno time as you fiddle with a dizzy, it's curves and the inability to really change settings for a twin plug set up on a mechanical level unless you remove the dizzy and change the curves and tweak the electronics or a however you are going to fire the second set of coils for the second set of plugs.

I bet the time wasted on this setup at a dyno shop at 125 - 175 $$++++ per hour would pay for a full Programmable Electronic ignition setup that would work better in the long run. Plus you would get a free EFI brain if you wanted to use the EFI functionality.

I dunno... just doesn't make sense to me.

If you want the look of spark plug wires. You can do what the 911 guys do.
Many of them run the Electromotive Tech series brain and coil packs.
This a known twin plug Porsche setup for six's. Works on 4s just as good.
Electromotive specs

The SDS setup will also handle coil packs for twin plug 4.

Some fun stuff..... 356 twin plug Q&A
Simple 356 twin plug data

For me.. I would simply run the COP with a programmable ECU and be done with it.

C

[DNHunt]

There was a pretty good example of what can happen if you overcharge a coil at the 24 Hours of Daytona this weekend. Several Pontiac engine cars came in to change coil packs. One crew member was checking them with a pyrometer. All had overheated coils. Sure looks to me like they got the wrong inductance or someone tuned the dwell wrong. I bring this up because I'm not sure that the original idea would control dwell.

These looked like modules of 4 coils. My guess is Coil near Plug so the leads are very short.

[Brando]

Clayton, when you go with that electromotive setup, can I rub one out on it?

Err, i mean, can I hang around and help you fiddle with it? I would love to learn how to set up a system like that and help out. It's what I have wet dreams of for my future supercharged 2.3L... In my wet dreams.

[Aaron Cox]

Why would it give him a crappy 009 advance curve if they're using a mallor distributor? Besides, with a 009 you can re-spring them accordingly. You just have to keep trying and changing springs until you get the advance curve desired.

those are designed to fit into a bosch dizzy (009 i believe) yes... you CAN play with a bosch dizzy advance curves with springs and tabs.... but why? its sloppy even new....

mallories are nice..... but they still wont support dual plug easily...

in the end you could have gone crank fire

[Jake Raby]

We are now much closer to the Ignition shootout with the new lab all finished up...
I just have a watercooled engine to finish up some development with and then a 2.5L EFI/Intercooled/Turbo to dyno and it's time to stop the squabbles..

You can watch LIVE via the net, you just have to subscribe- details on that later...

I have one of every ignition system available easily peramanently installed and hardwired into the lab, a turn of a switch changes the system- we can test 3 systems in two minutes, back to back to back.

[brer]

Why would it give him a crappy 009 advance curve if they're using a mallor distributor? Besides, with a 009 you can re-spring them accordingly. You just have to keep trying and changing springs until you get the advance curve desired.

those are designed to fit into a bosch dizzy (009 i believe) yes... you CAN play with a bosch dizzy advance curves with springs and tabs.... but why? its sloppy even new....

mallories are nice..... but they still wont support dual plug easily...

in the end you could have gone crank fire

Thats what makes my original idea cool (if it would work). You can use whatever the hell you like for ignition. Dizzie, or whatever as long as it has plug wires you just jump from them with the inductive trigger to fire the second plug.

Delay is the kicker, but I'm wondering how much delay there can be seeing as timing lights are pretty accurate right?

[Brando]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif) let's keep this topic going. Lots of good info here. :thumbup:

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Looking at where the second set of plugs would need to go (based on Raby's setup) and seeing everything in the way when I was doing my valve adjustment, twin plugs in a -4 would have to be for race engines or non-heated S&M street cars (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) No thank you! If I want dual plugs I'll take 'em in a -6 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jake Raby]

It's very tight, but the lower plugs in my set up are able to be removed without any serious work... We even made a special spanner to make it easier.

The 10mm plugs are a must, however..

Without exhaustive work on Len's part these would never have worked without having to remove pushrod tubes with each plug change.

If you don't want to run 11:1 on pump gas, or if you don't have a 103+mm bore leave it alone.

[Mueller]

I am still trying to figure out why you want to use a dizzy and incorporate COP.

It sounds like a novel approach. Yet I don't get it. (nuthin new)

You could accomplish a BETTER end result with electronics.

Totally lap top programmable. And have the ability to change settings on the fly.

This alone would pay for itself in saved dyno time. Imagine paying for hours of dyno time as you fiddle with a dizzy, it's curves and the inability to really change settings for a twin plug set up on a mechanical level unless you remove the dizzy and change the curves and tweak the electronics or a however you are going to fire the second set of coils for the second set of plugs.

I bet the time wasted on this setup at a dyno shop at 125 - 175 $$++++ per hour would pay for a full Programmable Electronic ignition setup that would work better in the long run. Plus you would get a free EFI brain if you wanted to use the EFI functionality.

I dunno... just doesn't make sense to me.

If you want the look of spark plug wires. You can do what the 911 guys do.
Many of them run the Electromotive Tech series brain and coil packs.
This a known twin plug Porsche setup for six's. Works on 4s just as good.
Electromotive specs

The SDS setup will also handle coil packs for twin plug 4.

Some fun stuff..... 356 twin plug Q&A
Simple 356 twin plug data

For me.. I would simply run the COP with a programmable ECU and be done with it.

C

When I bought my LINK ECU (and Randal bought his at the same time from same place) the advice from Neil at Performance Developments recommended against crankfire and to use the dizzy (it is still laptop programmable)....the LINK supports crankfire at no added cost....also, I was "this" close to buying a MoTec, same advice from the local tuning guru...both felt crankfire was not worth the extra costs/troubles...and I'm sure you know Niel is an ex-Porsche Motorsports engineer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

For Jake or someone willing to spend hours on the dyno, I'm guessing that yes, he might be able to squeeze a little more from a crankfire, but at what cost??

aaron, that setup might fit in other dizzy's, I'm guessing they used the 009 as an example due to it being available brand new at a reasonable cost??? just a guess...

[914fan]

Did anybody notice that the heads on page 11 that are suppost to be TIVs are TIs? Page 28 says the TIVs are pictured on pg11. I don't know that I would trust a company that can't lable the catalog right.

[Twystd1]

As far as crank fire. There is NO WAY a dizzy can be as accurate as a timing wheel on the crank.

WE have beat this question to death on other forums.

With back to back dyno tests from Lance Nist.
(Lance has enough patents on automotive ignitions and ecu's to make your head spin)

The wheel works best. There are harmonics and dizzy gear lash issues that won't allow a dizzy to be as accurate as a wheel.

If the engine is out of the car such as in Randals case. It is is no big deal to install a wheel on the crank. And install a sensor on the block.
Most of the MegaSquirt guys do this.
I THINK Jake has done this for a SDS installs.
(Jake, chime in here please)

It's really not a big deal to install one. If the engine is out of the car.

Conversely, If the engine is in the car. And you don't need/want MAXIMUM benefit of a trick programmable ignition. Using the dizzy to trigger the ignition.. WORKS. And works pretty well.

Kinda depends on your end result, dollars, willingness to get the maximum benefit of the system.

Rather than writing a dissertation on this.

I will post a link of a guy that did the Wheel installation on a water cooled 4 cylinder engine. He went from Ford EDIS coil pack to COP.
This guy kinda reminds me of Trekkor. Make do with what you have.
Fun little article......
BMW 2002 M/S COP install.


There are already type IV crank wheel setups for sale from vendors.

IMHO... That is the best way to go if the engine is out of the car.

And I agree Brando... This is a great thread.

OH..... Randal... I won't second guess Neil Harvey. (very often)

C

[Jake Raby]

Omitting the dizzy is the first step in making big power thats super adjustable... Dizzys have mechanical properties that WILL scatter spark, especially at higher RPM, even if the advance is being controlled within the ECU..

The reason that fellow probably advised against direct fire was because he didn't want to support the install! Wiring direct fire with these arrangements (except SDS) is a real bitch as it requires a "Reference" and a "Synch" signal, then there are adjustments thatt trim both these..

It is even difficult for us, for the past 3 days we have been fighting with a Motec Direct ignition arrangement on the new dyno- its no fun at all..

sometimes people recommend whats best for them, not you or the engine- especially if they have to spend hours helping you set it up-

Some Motec pics from today..

[DNHunt]

Clayton

Cool info on the BMW 2002. I may be looking for BMW coils pretty soon.

Dave

[brer]

I spoke with Great Plains and their twin spark conversion for the type 4 positions the second plug on the top of the motor, offset from the stock position at an angle.

244 dollars.

[DNHunt]

I'm a little out of my field of expertise but, this is how I see it An aviation application may not be a good choice for us. Remember the 2nd plug is for redundancy in case first ignition system goes out. The position of the plug is not that critical. As I understand it, in our application the second plug is to get a second spark front going to get a more complete burn. Having it on the opposite side of the combustion chamber is an advantage.

Dave

[brer]

I think you're right. I was curious as to how they approached it, and figured that info should be posted here so people dont go calling them up asking the same question.


So since we're talking crank fire applications now, what the shopping list and donor cars people should be looking at? Ford EDIS systems are from what models?

other options? and more importantly whats the COST of the different setups?

electromotive $$$
sds $$

[jd74914]

Ford EDIS is from the 2.3turbos IIRC

[brer]

what car and years?