Repainting the 914: Down to metal, always?, Curious to get your thoughts Options

[John]

By reading this post you will know how I voted.

I am not a professional body person by any means, but have painted a few cars and helped with several others.

I have done some spot repairs, and with my experience and skill level, I find it necessary to go down to bare metal and start over. Here are a few reasons:

1. I am too tight to send my car off to be painted. (They wouldn't do the prepwork that I will do anyway.)

2. When doing spot repairs, I can never seem to totally eliminate all visible evidence of the repair. For me, it's easier to do the whole panel. No blending, no feathering, etc.

3. When I spend the time to repaint, I don't want it to blister in a few years. I really don't want to have to EVER repaint it. The only way to be sure of your substrate, is to remove all prior coatings and start over.

4. Metal prep is metal prep. When the 914 bodies were new, they were e-coated. The original e-coat would and does provide a very nice start point, but today's etching primers are a good starting point as well.


just my humble opinions

[horizontally-opposed]

There is a LOT of good info filtering into this, and all on a positive note. Keep it coming.

Thanks!

pete

[JPB]

If your car has a few layers of paint, thats good because you can block snad it until its perfect. If you have rust issues, then that requires alot more work or money. It all depends on application also. My new car will get block sanded, roller painted and color sanded. I can do a little at a time and it should come out great for a track car. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[jk76.914]

I too was worried about being able to get as durable a paint job as the factor, and also about removing paint from areas where I could never replace it. So I dipped my doors, engine lid, and headlight covers. Then I had the trunk lids blasted, to keep the paint plus Ziebart intact in the channels.

That pretty much left the four fenders, and after cutting them out for flares, there wasn't much of them either. My car had been repainted, back in '80, so I could hand sand the fenders and use the different paint layer colors as a depth gauge. I took it down to a mottled mix of original primer and original color, mostly primer.

My car was virtually rust-free. Trunks and engine compartment were Zeibarted after that repaint in '80. Terrible stuff to live with, especially in the trunks, but after soaking it off with solvent and rags, it had done it's job. I left it on the undersides, just cleaned it and freshened up the wheelwells.

Every car is different and needs its own strategy. The hybrid approach worked for me.

[ClayPerrine]

I don't think you need to remove all the old paint.. just get a nice, thick napped roller and paint right over that rust, dirt and anything else you happen to find.










Then the owner sees his car and ends up looking kinda like this...







Seriously.. with cars as old as ours, you almost have to take them to bare metal to get them right. After 35 or more years, you don't know what horrors could be hiding under the seemingly original paint.

[crash914]

Hi Jim, looks great!

I got your pressure plate and flywheel.

Hijack over....

I too was worried about being able to get as durable a paint job as the factor, and also about removing paint from areas where I could never replace it. So I dipped my doors, engine lid, and headlight covers. Then I had the trunk lids blasted, to keep the paint plus Ziebart intact in the channels.

That pretty much left the four fenders, and after cutting them out for flares, there wasn't much of them either. My car had been repainted, back in '80, so I could hand sand the fenders and use the different paint layer colors as a depth gauge. I took it down to a mottled mix of original primer and original color, mostly primer.

My car was virtually rust-free. Trunks and engine compartment were Zeibarted after that repaint in '80. Terrible stuff to live with, especially in the trunks, but after soaking it off with solvent and rags, it had done it's job. I left it on the undersides, just cleaned it and freshened up the wheelwells.

Every car is different and needs its own strategy. The hybrid approach worked for me.

[TJB/914]

My paint process was very similiar to JK76.914 in Massachusetts. My goal was to save as much money as possible by doing some things myself. I had a body man working out of his home garage & was able to support him by taking parts to outside services for paint removal. I took the engine lid, hood & trunk lids, doors, rocker panels, splash pans & anything sheet metal to a local paint removal dipping operation for paint removal. They dipped the parts for paint removal & dipped in a neturalizing solution which I highly reccommend. My body man stripped all exterior sheet metal to bare metal. We didn't remove any orig. paint inside cavities like the (2) trunks, engline compartment, gas tank area & only some of the interior areas like the floor. My 914 was rust free so things worked out very well. After all sheet metal pcs came back from the dipping operation we used a metal etching primer (I think DP-40) primer on all the cars bare metal surfaces. This metal etching primer is a must do before the paint process begains. Be sure to follow the mfg's instructions to the letter. Along the way during metal straightening I used an Indian Ink wash (see Photo) to show low spots in the lasher straight finish.

Summary:
I believe I was able to save lots of labor costs by taking removable pcs. to be acid dipped saving lots of labor costs. I also believe don't do a thing to interior surfaces because the factory paint systems are good. Only remove exterior paint surfaces to bare metal.

Tom
BTW: The painting of my restoration was one of the most flusterating tasks of my restoration. Went through the paint guys divorce, sickness, job loss & finally he ended up stealing money from me. I trusted him at the paint store to bill me direct for paint supply's he said he needed. He painted a few Harley's on my money. The best part, I got a beautiful professional paint job & no longer talk or reccommend this paint guy. Painter's are wierd people!!!

[tracks914]

I took 2 different approaches on my 2 cars. Both cars have complete color changes.

For the interior, underside, engine compartment and trunks I used a 60 psi media blaster and took multiple layers of old repaint down to the original paint. It was amazing how much tougher the original paint is then the repaints. (60 psi won't cut through the original very well) Once at the original paint, the media blasting left a rough enough surface to put on a good epoxy primer. Any areas that needed rust repair were done first. The outer fenders were all taken down to bare metal then primed with epoxy primer before the bodywork was started. This way I knew the outer shells would last and if I have to do a later trunk repair, who cares.
So far no signs of rust anywhere.
BTW by the time my GT car is done I don't think all that FG and bondo will rust. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[PanelBilly]

There is only one way for sure to know what the base is and that's to strip everything off, but it needs to be done with care. First comes the blouse, then then skirt, oh yah, this is my car, first comes the layers of mistakes made by po.

[black73]

When the cars were painted at the factory the metal prep was the best and cannot be duplicated.

So... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif) why did they rust so much?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

[gaz914]

we just found 8 (eight!) layers of old paint on my drivers side fender. with primer and bondo, it's easily 1/2" thick ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon8.gif)


never ever again. from now on, it's either acid dip and nice or rattle can and don't care.

anything else inbetween just makes me wanna puke ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) Andy

That was pretty much my experience (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

It has been said that there is no such thing as a rust free 914.
So the obvious extension to that is painting over the rust is only going to be a temporary solution.

If it is going to be a "keeper", then you may as well spend the time and/or money to do it properly.

Otherwise leave it as it is and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

cheers
Gaz

[914-8]

When the cars were painted at the factory the metal prep was the best and cannot be duplicated.

So... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif) why did they rust so much?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

They don't typically rust starting on the exterior side of the painted panels. They either rust from the backsides of the panels, the bottoms of the chassis, or when the paint has been completely compromised, either by things like battery acid or a few decades of neglect.

Anyways, IMO, it really depends on the particular car, although as time goes on, more and more 914s are going to need a pretty thorough takedown of all the paint. 15 years ago, there were still a good number of non-significantly-rusted original paint 914s that just needed an exterior respray of the paint. (There still are some in California, although even that number is dropping.) For a solid car like that, I'd rather retain as much of the factory primer (and below) as possible.

As you start to get into rust issues, cars with 30 years accumulation of bad body repairs which are now carrying 50 lbs of bondo on them, a dozen layers of paint, etc., and cars where the original paint system has otherwise completely broken down, you have to go much further.

[dgw]

The paint guys I used to talk to always said that you will never get a primer coat as good as the one the factory put on, so why strip it off if you don't have to.

They also talked about bleeding, said they would discourage doing a color change on a red car, even if stripped. They seemed to think you could never get all the red out and it would bleed on the first rock chip.

YMMV.

[John]

The paint guys I used to talk to always said that you will never get a primer coat as good as the one the factory put on, so why strip it off if you don't have to.

They also talked about bleeding, said they would discourage doing a color change on a red car, even if stripped. They seemed to think you could never get all the red out and it would bleed on the first rock chip.

YMMV.

Sounds like they huffed too much paint in their time. How would a stripped to bare metal chassis "bleed" red through.

Definitely some brain damage there.



Just a question for you folks who think the factory primer was next to perfect:

If the factory applied primer was so good, then why are there so many rusty 914's????

[PRS914-6]

If the factory applied primer was so good, then why are there so many rusty 914's????

I have to agree......Paint has come a long ways in 35 years. The coatings are so much better now. Why not take advantage of that?

Pete already knows how I feel about this one. I would be reluctant to paint a car this old and not get it down to bare metal. Just too many unknowns hiding.

On my car there were a few blisters that turned into complete rust throughs after it was media blasted. You couldn't tell until it was blasted. If they were painted over, the rust would have crept through the new paint.

The downside is to go to bare metal, the entire car has to be stripped and it triples the price of the job. If you knew positively (and I don't know how you could) that no rust existed under the OEM paint, I can't see a problem with a re-spray. If you miss a spot of rust and it bleeds through, you wasted all the money initially spent and still have to strip it.

It's a tough decision if you are on a budget.....

[BigD9146gt]

This is a tough one, I think it ultimately depends on the car, who's doing the work, and the quality of the materials being used. I took all of the auto body/paint classes that the local JC had to offer and they were ICAR backed classes. I was able to keep my chassis at the school and strip it down via DA to bare metal, epoxy primer each panel as soon as I reached metal to prevent any oxidation, installed flares, smoothed it all out, and final paint in the schools booth.

First of all, lets talk about the factory paint. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they dipped the cars in primer, so it "should have" covered every surface and crack. Obviously over time this barrier has subsided to the elements. In most cases, its due to rocks chipping the paint, battery acid, and normal chassis flex during use which creats openings at the seams. You only need to go to metal where oxidation has taken place or massive amounts of bondo was favored above spending more time/money "fixing" the dent correctly.

Some of these chassis have MANY paint jobs. My chassis started life signal orange, forget the second color (black maybe?), then back to signal orange, and then again, then I think a red, and finally maroon metallic. Depending on the quality of the respray, I wouldn't want more than 3 paint jobs on a car. At that point I'd at least take it down to the previous paint job and lay down the new coat.

Now assuming for the moment we're going to keep a few layers of the factory paint and only focus on the oxidation and any thick filled areas. Take those to bare metal and bondo or epoxy primer, then spray your sanding primers and smooth out the panels. Sounds easy right? Here in lies a surrounding problem. The old paint will actually soak up the solvents from the new primers and paints. This causes the new paint to shrink and/or crack which can ruin the final paint job if the chassis is rushed from start to finish. To prevent this from happening, light initial coats along with waiting longer between coats to give the solvents more time to be absorbed by the old, and then evaporate from both.

For future projects I am more inclined to leave a few factory layers because I simply don't see the purpose of spending the extra money in sanding materials.

All that being said, if the chassis was special enough like the original 6's or even race history (I know they're all worth saving, but some more than others), I would consider acid dipping. Wurth, along with others like 3M make phenomenal tunnel sealer spraying tools. They work by sticking a small, long flexible tube as far up in the tunnel from an access hole. Then you pull the trigger and pull the tube out slowly while spraying a 360deg fan coating of a wax/primer. Being unable to coat those parts is the only thing that would keep me from an acid dip.

Well, thats all i know at the moment. Cheers, Don.

[smj]

I've got a factory 1970 914-6 that was originally signal orange, and has at least two paint jobs over that. The white spray may have been okay, and they left the trunks alone. The black paint job was at best sloppy, and at worst came out of a rattle can. There's overspray all over the car, including the driver's window -- couldn't even be bothered to take a scraper to that -- and the interior carpets. The black is now flaking off the original signal orange in the rear trunk and engine bay.

My inclination is to take it to bare metal, removing everything. Since this car already has a slant nose and swapped motor, I'm not trying to keep it factory original or anything. But I do want it to last, and I don't want to have to do anything over again due to quality issues.

I've figured I'd get it soda blasted everywhere reachable. I haven't reached a sufficient level of comfort with acid dipping the tub, or perhaps I should say I lack confidence in the neutralizers being 100% effective. How to treat or coat the underbody, inner rockers, trunks, fenderwells, and all the hard-to-reach nooks and crannies is still an open question.

So I expect to wind up with a rotisserie-type bare metal strip and build-up, and may God have mercy upon my checkbook... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[2-OH!]

1st two 75's I restored, I just sanded down to good solid factory paint and stopped...Both later had rust seep through in places we thought were solid...

Current 73 model (Speed Yellow) was torn down to "tub on a furniture dolly" condition, media blasted to bare metal and we found rust damage in places we thought were solid...

Moral of the story, rust is sneaky and hides better than you thought...Take it to bare metal so you can find all the hidden rust and repair before paint...

You can fix it now or fix it later, but your gonna' fix it...

2-OH!

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

I would be reluctant to paint a car this old and not get it down to bare metal. Just too many unknowns hiding.

On my car there were a few blisters that turned into complete rust throughs after it was media blasted. You couldn't tell until it was blasted. If they were painted over, the rust would have crept through the new paint.

The downside is to go to bare metal, the entire car has to be stripped and it triples the price of the job. If you knew positively (and I don't know how you could) that no rust existed under the OEM paint, I can't see a problem with a re-spray. If you miss a spot of rust and it bleeds through, you wasted all the money initially spent and still have to strip it.

It's a tough decision if you are on a budget.....

Beneath this decent looking paint (redone in 1979) lies the reality of rust.

[turtleturtle]

What about cars that have the Chalon body conversion on it? I have it, but it's been painted 17 times. I have been working on sanding it down as best as possible. All of the metal on the body is gone, except the doors, hood and trunks. The original paint is still there and I had some very very minor rust problems, but my hood is just too rusted underneath it to fix. Should I just get the fiberglass hood as well and not have to worry about rust there anymore, seeing how the whole body is also fiberglass? The rear trunk is perfect and so is the doors and engine cover.