Wheels and Tires, Let's get this discussion centralized Options

[Tom_T]

The early 1973 914-2Ls were subject to the BH & BO Wheel recalls as listed at the link below (those built up through Dec. 1972):
> http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Recalls.htm

Scroll to those recalls near the bottom of the chart, click the hot links at the right 2 columns, & read the actual letters to the dealers for each & you can see which applied to your early 914-2.0/914S. That's how I identified which applied to mine.

I put a post earlier here on page 9 - 6th down, which discussed this in detail.

THIS SHOWS THE "CORRECT" INSET AT THE CENTER OF THE BACK OF FUCHS ALLOYS - WHICH SHOULD ALSO BE ON ALL WHEELS FOR 1973+ 914s WITH THE SELF-CENTERING FRONT HUBS:



EDITED 3-24-12

[Jasfsmith]

Tom:

Where did your info on the tire OE come from? What review I did did not yield a factory recommended tire manufacturer.

BTW, My "SIX" came with XAS tube type tires.

[Tom_T]

Tom:

Where did your info on the tire OE come from? What review I did did not yield a factory recommended tire manufacturer.

BTW, My "SIX" came with XAS tube type tires.

James,

True that they apparently didn't tell anyone that they spec'd a particular manufacturer, & it seems that they sourced from several during the 914's production run, as discussed below. As far as I know so far, none of the manufacturers produced a tire design specific to ANY model of the 914s, but they probably had a "favorite" tire type/mfgr. from their racing experience. That may have been the Dunlop SP 57 - because they supplied the 914-2L cars with those tires in 165HR15 size/speed-rating to both R&T & MT for their early 1973 CY road tests of that then "new model", & Porsche|Audi (VW USA) would've wanted to "put their best foot forward" to get the best press!

All of the USA imported 914/6s (such as yours) were from the 1970 & 71 MYs as I understand it, & therefore did have the "older style" tube-type tires & rims/wheels, which would have had "plain" wheels size markings such as: 5-1/2x15, 4-1/2x15, 6x15 etc. - with no letter designator after the rim width. They also would not have had the 1973-76 MY self-centering front hubs/disks with the raised lip at the center - fitting into the indent on the back of the alloy around the center hole in the pic in my prior post (unless changed later), but the 914/6 may have been a completely different front hub/disk as I understood.

The same would be true for the 1970-72 914/4s. Although, they may have done the switch to some late MY 72 cars, as they did to carry-over older parts into early-1973 MY 914s, such as with my early-73 914-2.0/914S having the "new-style" front brake calipers with 2 bleeders, while the rears are the "old-style" with just one bleeder. Maybe other 1972 914/4 owners can speak to their front hubs/disks on this matter?

The switch to tubeless tires was in model year 1973, during 1972 - when Porcshe/VW switched to the rims & alloy wheels marked with the "J" designator - e.g.: the "5-1/2Jx15" on the pic of the back of the Fuchs 2L Alloy in my post above (there may have also been some 1972 models with these rims later in that MY).

My OE tire & wheel info came from extensive research online (here, rennlist/914 SIG, etc., etc.), as well as in reviews in 1972-74 Road & Track, Motor Trend, etc. road tests of the 1973 914 & 914-2.0, tire tests/ratings & period ads, etc. Most of those sources referenced the Dunlop SP57 in the appropriate 155SR15 or 165HR15 as the OE tire for the 914-1.7L or 914-2.0L respectively. They'd also referenced less often that Continentals & Michelins were variously delivered on 914s of that era, & I've know other 914 new 914 buyers who got them in CA with Semperits as well (maybe dealer substitues?).

I know that my own early-73 914-2.0 was delivered to the original/PO on 11/9/72 in CA, with Semperits (M401s) mounted on Rivieras - the latter of which was NOT proper OE fitment to my chagrin - esp. at their replacement cost & difficulty today! However, they may have been part of the dealer scam which took my 2L Alloys as discussed in prior posts, since Semperit M401s & M266s were readily available here in SoCal during the 1970s, & they were less expensive than the Dunlops & Michelins, etc. - but generally performed as well or better than the others - both according to the period tire tests/ratings, ads & IMHO!

TIRE FITMENT FOR 914-1.7 & "914S" (914-2.0) FROM EARLY-1973 MY PORSCHE|AUDI SALES BROCHURE





LOW RES PIC OF COVER OF EARLY-1973 MY ABOVE PORSCHE|AUDI "PORSCHE 914" SALES BROCHURE - FOR REFERENCE OF ABOVE SPECS




SEE NEXT 2 POSTS FOR THE MT & R&T ROAD TEST SPECS WITH OE TIRE INFO.....
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tom_T]

"914/S" (914-2.0/"914S") TIRE FITMENT AT SPECS FROM 2/73 R&T ROAD TEST ARTICLE



...see MT 1/73 at next post....

[Tom_T]

"914S" (914-2.0) TIRE FITMENT AT SPECS FROM 1/73 MT ROAD TEST ARTICLE




Hope this helps! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Porsche Rescue]

I always thought the "J" designation was not necessarily an indicator of a "tubeless" wheel, but rather a rim design which attempted to prevent a tire from coming off the wheel in case of an extreme failure. This would be more necessary with a tubeless tire I suppose. My memory is clouded by 39 years, but I thought sure my new '70 had tubeless tires. Since US cars had them in '57 (I worked in a service station then) I am surprised that the Germans waited until '73.

[Tom_T]

I always thought the "J" designation was not necessarily an indicator of a "tubeless" wheel, but rather a rim design which attempted to prevent a tire from coming off the wheel in case of an extreme failure. This would be more necessary with a tubeless tire I suppose. My memory is clouded by 39 years, but I thought sure my new '70 had tubeless tires. Since US cars had them in '57 (I worked in a service station then) I am surprised that the Germans waited until '73.

You're right on with the "J" rim design & purpose was to go to tubeless without the risk of slow/continuous &/or instant deflation without the tubes inside!

Das German tardiness vus due to das German cranky engineers I zuppose!

I was also told back in the 1970's that the tubes could get pinched & punctured more easily with those "J" rims, & that I'd need to switch wheels to use the tube-type tires on my 914.

Can anyone confirm that, cuz it would affect whether I can even use the XAS on the Fuchs 2L Alloys???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I remember that my uncle's 58 vette had tubeless too, back in 63! ...one "old fart" to another! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[orange914]

i know these "westerns" are aftermarket, (15x5.5) but i've seen these more often than not on early 73's like mine. this group mentioned are the first 1000 + - sent over to fill sales, origanally slated for europe. i'm thinking the dealer put them on a majority of them???

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) That may be a partial urban myth on the first 1000+/- 2Ls....
I don't see how they could have sent Euro 914-2Ls over here - unless they changed engines in the factory,

mine as all the others where origanally 1.7 as far as i can tell. like many 914's they have been converted to 2.0's or sixes.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=61696&hl=

mike

[Tom_T]

EDITED - DELETE

[Tom_T]

If James is correct in his post above it would seem the Vredestein would be the appropriate tire for me @ Concours. They have a 165HR15 & would appear to be period correct.

James, you are aware though that the Michelin XAS is a tubed tire & will not fit onto a Mahle or a Fuchs? The only tubeless Michelin available is the XZX, @ $131.00/per (Coker), & SR rated. Also, my Kardex says I have to have HR tires so there is documentation that says what tires the car came w/ besides the tank sticker. To preserve a car properly would involve not only the right size but the right rating.

I've chosen to go w/ the OEM gambit- "Dunlop SP 57" 165HR15 was my original tire. "Dunlop SP Sport A2+" 195/65HR15 is what she'll have in Charolette. Both are HR rated & both are the "SP" model from Dunlop. I am planning on bringing my Kardex, Bill of Sale & COA to Charolette, as required? Should I bring my old "SP57" as well?

I would also presume from James's posting that the Kuhmo 165/80HR15 available from "The Tire Rack" @ $32.00/per is the best choice for every CW except those in preservation, because Kuhmo was not around in 1976.


BTW- sick as a dog... summertime flu has got me again. I can go outside in shorts & a T shirt in winter & not get sick. In & out of AC into the Southern heat is murder on my body. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

So Johhny B - out of curiosity, how did the judges react to your Dunlop SP Sport A2+ 195/65HR15 at the Charlotte show & those since summer 2007 ???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Jasfsmith]

If James is correct in his post above it would seem the Vredestein would be the appropriate tire for me @ Concours. They have a 165HR15 & would appear to be period correct.

James, you are aware though that the Michelin XAS is a tubed tire & will not fit onto a Mahle or a Fuchs? The only tubeless Michelin available is the XZX, @ $131.00/per (Coker), & SR rated. Also, my Kardex says I have to have HR tires so there is documentation that says what tires the car came w/ besides the tank sticker. To preserve a car properly would involve not only the right size but the right rating.

I've chosen to go w/ the OEM gambit- "Dunlop SP 57" 165HR15 was my original tire. "Dunlop SP Sport A2+" 195/65HR15 is what she'll have in Charolette. Both are HR rated & both are the "SP" model from Dunlop. I am planning on bringing my Kardex, Bill of Sale & COA to Charolette, as required? Should I bring my old "SP57" as well?

I would also presume from James's posting that the Kuhmo 165/80HR15 available from "The Tire Rack" @ $32.00/per is the best choice for every CW except those in preservation, because Kuhmo was not around in 1976.


BTW- sick as a dog... summertime flu has got me again. I can go outside in shorts & a T shirt in winter & not get sick. In & out of AC into the Southern heat is murder on my body. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

So Johhny B - out of curiosity, how did the judges react to your Dunlop SP Sport A2+ 195/65HR15 at the Charlotte show & those since summer 2007 ???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I have XAS's mounted on my "SIX's" Mahle's and they perform just fine.

In regards to the Dunlop SP Sport A2+" 195/65HR15, it is the profile that would get you dinged as it does not conform to the OEM specs. A nice tyre otherwise.

[Jasfsmith]

True that they apparently didn't tell anyone that they spec'd a particular manufacturer, & it seems that they sourced from several during the 914's production run, as discussed below. As far as I know so far, none of the manufacturers produced a tire design specific to ANY model of the 914s, but they probably had a "favorite" tire type/mfgr. from their racing experience. That may have been the Dunlop SP 57 - because they supplied the 914-2L cars with those tires in 165HR15 size/speed-rating to both R&T & MT for their early 1973 CY road tests of that then "new model", & Porsche|Audi (VW USA) would've wanted to "put their best foot forward" to get the best press!

All of the USA imported 914/6s (such as yours) were from the 1970 & 71 MYs as I understand it, & therefore did have the "older style" tube-type tires & rims/wheels, which would have had "plain" wheels size markings such as: 5-1/2x15, 4-1/2x15, 6x15 etc. - with no letter designator after the rim width. They also would not have had the 1973-76 MY self-centering front hubs/disks with the raised lip at the center - fitting into the indent on the back of the alloy around the center hole in the pic in my prior post (unless changed later), but the 914/6 may have been a completely different front hub/disk as I understood.

The switch to tubeless tires was in model year 1973, during 1972 - when Porcshe/VW switched to the rims & alloy wheels marked with the "J" designator - e.g.: the "5-1/2Jx15" on the pic of the back of the Fuchs 2L Alloy in my post above (there may have also been some 1972 models with these rims later in that MY).

I suspect that the tire manufacturer delection was more a function of cost rather than from ""favorite" tire type/mfgr. from their racing experience".

I belive that all wheels offerd by Porsche were "J" designated (at least per their parts manual). The use of a tube was more the tyre manufacturer's tyre design choice.

My point in regards to the Concours discussion, authentication on what tyre is correct for show presentation can only be determined by a COA (which I've yet to see one that lists the tyre manufacturer, and we know the questionable accuracy of COA's) and what Porsche factory documentation that was delivered with the car (i.e. Onwer's manual, affixed car labels/stickers). Thus my statment that correct tyre is one where the manufacturer/tire design (tread pattern)/profile (size and speed rating) that was available during the MY production.

[Jasfsmith]

mine as all the others where origanally 1.7 as far as i can tell. like many 914's they have been converted to 2.0's or sixes.


mike

I must have missed something in my readings. I thought that the bodies were produced by Karman Coach Works and delivered to either VW or Porsche for final trime fitment and running gear installation. No 6's were ever produced at the VW factory, and only a number of 4's after Porsche obtained the final rights to the design ever were seen a the Porsche factory.

Am I wrong?

[Tom_T]

So Johhny B - out of curiosity, how did the judges react to your Dunlop SP Sport A2+ 195/65HR15 at the Charlotte show & those since summer 2007 ???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I have XAS's mounted on my "SIX's" Mahle's and they perform just fine.

In regards to the Dunlop SP Sport A2+" 195/65HR15, it is the profile that would get you dinged as it does not conform to the OEM specs. A nice tyre otherwise.

BTW All Y'all -
(that's plural for Y'all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

Even that Dunlop SP is now NLA! The only 2 tires close to a swap/upsize fitment for 914 wheels available today from Dunlop (nee Goodyear brand) are these two 195/65HR15s at the links below - & they're NOT OE "Dunlop SP 57":

Branded as "SP 5000" but a "wild & crazy kinda..." tread pattern:
http://www.dunloptires.com/dunlop/display_...00&zipCode=

More "conventional Tread Pattern, but not branded as "SP":
http://www.dunloptires.com/dunlop/display_...00&zipCode=

I've found nobody yet which carries the Michelin XWX or XZX in a tubeless variety 165HR15, and their XAS is tube-type - as 1 of the only 2 period/OEM tire manufacturers out there.

The other - Pirelli CN36 is also tube-type & currently only available in the M485 Option size/rating of 185/70VR15 - although the Lucas Tires guy said they plan to reintroduce a 165HR15 to be mfgd in Ireland, & have moved the dies there earlier this year (2009).

This only leaves the Vredestein 165HR15 tubeless radial as the only correct size/rating/tubeless variety available today, & while they were in business mfg tires in the Netherlands during the 1970s, they apparently weren't supplying tires to the factory for the 914s & it's unclear if they did so in the OE 1973my Spec'd. 155SR15 &/or 165HR15 tubeless radials for the 1970's aftermarket.

The 1970's Tire Manufacturers of the day that manufactured either OE* &/or aftermarket tires for the 914s which I recall were:
Dunlop*
Michelin* & *** & (**?)
Continental*
Semperit (*?)
Cooper (*?)
Kleber (a Michelin subsidiary - *?)
Pirelli (*?) & (***?) & ***(only w/-185/70VR15 @ M485 Option)

Other 1970's Tire Manufacturers of the day that manufactured some aftermarket tires for the 914s that may or MAY NOT be CW acceptable which I recall were:
Vredestein** (not sure if proper size/rating offered back then?)
Bridgestone
Firestone
Goodyear
Sears (various contract suppliers, incl. the latter 2 above)
others...?

* ------- Known OE 914 Tire Supplier
(*?) ---- Possible OE 914 Tire Supplier
(?) ------ Possible Aftermarket 914 Sizes Tire Supplier in 1970s
** ------ Currently Supplier of 165HR15 &/or 155SR15 Tubeless Radials per OE Spec (1973 & ??)
(**?) --- Possible Current Supplier of 165HR15 &/or 155SR15 Tubeless Radials per OE Spec (1973 & ??)
*** ----- Currently Supplier of 165HR15 &/or 155SR15 Tube-type Radials per OE Spec (not sure which MYs)
(***?) -- Possible Current Supplier of 165HR15 &/or 155SR15 Tube-type Radials per OE Spec (NOT proper spec where Tubeless were OE (not sure which MYs)

>>>>>> If not noted, then they probably only now offer 195x15 &/or other suitable but non-OE sizes.

> Note that Porsche|Audi's early-1973 MY 914 Sales Brochure's Specs on the 4th pg. which I posted earlier in this thread a few up - Specifies either 155SR15 Tubeless (914 with 1.7L) & 165HR15 Tubeless (914S with 2.0L).

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif) I do not have the comparable sales brochures for the other MYs, so others will need to step in & clarify Tube or Tubeless for each MY.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif) OTHERS OUT THERE PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CLARIFY &/OR ADD TO THE ABOVE LIST!

[Tom_T]

I suspect that the tire manufacturer delection was more a function of cost rather than from ""favorite" tire type/mfgr. from their racing experience".

I belive that all wheels offerd by Porsche were "J" designated (at least per their parts manual). The use of a tube was more the tyre manufacturer's tyre design choice.

My point in regards to the Concours discussion, authentication on what tyre is correct for show presentation can only be determined by a COA (which I've yet to see one that lists the tyre manufacturer, and we know the questionable accuracy of COA's) and what Porsche factory documentation that was delivered with the car (i.e. Onwer's manual, affixed car labels/stickers). Thus my statment that correct tyre is one where the manufacturer/tire design (tread pattern)/profile (size and speed rating) that was available during the MY production.

True again, Porsche &/or VW selected from several manufacturers based upon availability & whatever bulk deal they negotiated with the various suppliers, which I know at least included Dunlop, Michelin & Continental, as well as possibly others such as Semperit, Pirelli, Cooper, etc.

My point was that the Dunlop SP 57 was supplied for the press coverage road tests, so that may have been the one which they felt performed best as of early 1973 on their "new" 914S/914-2.0 as noted in the R&T & MT Road Test Articles' pix which I'd posted above!? However, it also could have just been happen-stance, as you noted.

With regards to "J" wheels - what I've read that they were new for the 914/4s in the 1973 MY - corresponding to the use of Tubeless Radials (instead of tube-type as in prior MYs). The 914-6s may have been a different matter, since they utilized the 5-Lug Porsche wheels, and you 6ers would know more about that aspect than I! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

As to the COA - they're a joke for many 914s, & useless in this matter because tires wouldn't be covered - except if a particular Optional Tire/Wheel fitment were listed! ...then it's an easy answer as to what should be on their 914!!! ...IF they can find those wheels & Tires today????? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

As to Factory/Marketing Arm Documentation which you referenced for CW documentation at shows - the PORSCHE|AUDI arm of VW USA was the marketing arm here in the USA for 1969-1977 when 914s of the 1970-1976 MY were sold. It was in that spirit, specifically & only for the "early" 1973 MY 914s, that I had posted the 4 pg. PORSCHE|AUDI 914 Sales Brochure, on which the 4th pg. Specs.specifically state that Tubeless tires & "J" wheels were the appropriate Factory OE fitment for that 1st half of the 73MY. I'll admit to the possibility that it could have changed in the 2nd half when the 914S nomenclature was changed to 914 2.0, but I have no documentation on that part of the 73MY - nor on the other MYs.

http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Brochures.htm

I do have in my possession - an actual hard copy of the bigger/longer 12pg. version of that early-1973 MY PORSCHE|AUDI 914 sales brochure available at their dealers, which has the same front cover & back cover with the Spec. Sheet, as well as all of the information of the 4 pg. one (albeit in a different layout) - as well as additional information & pix. That 12 pg. brochure is also available at the 914 SIG webpage below, but the 4 pg. one has more legible pages linked thereto. I've supplied Jeff Bowlsby with better pix of my 12 pg. brochure, which I'm sure he'll post there too/instead, when he gets a chance.

Below is posted a detailed pic form my 12 pg. Brochure which clearly states the wheel & tire fitment as Factory OE for both the 914 (1.7L) & 914S (2.0L) Models of the early-1973 MY. Additionally, the bottom of both the 4 pg. & 12 pg. Specs. have the disclaimer that they can change the specs. at any time without notice.

THE EARLY-1973 914 BROCHURE'S SPEC. BELOW -I WOULD SAY THAT THE ONLY TOTALLY CORRECT TIRE FOR 914S OF THAT PERIOD WAS TUBELESS:
Detail from my 12 pg. Brochure's Specs. on Wheels & Tires:


Low Rez Front & Back Covers of 12 pg. Brochure from Web Link above:



Given the above, IMHO - I again say that the more appropriate course for PCA et al's CW scoring would be to rate the Tire aspect based upon the maximum number of attributes for a particular model & year garner the best point score in the Wheels & Tires category (but then, I'm not a member). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

IMHO -it would seem an appropriate course of action for those whose 914s Spec'd. Tubeless tires, that they contact Vredestein to see if they can get a letter confirming that they either supplied OES tires to Porsche/VW for the 914s, &/or if they had available in 1970s aftermarket (non-OES) Tubeless Radial Tires in the 914's OE spec'd. size (e.g.: 165HR15 or 155SR15).

[Tom_T]

EDITED - DELETE

[Porsche Rescue]

The Michelin 165SR15 XZX sold by Coker at a mere $169 is a tubless tire.

http://store.coker.com/search.php?mode=sea...bstring=165SR15

For those who need H rated 165's they have the XAS tube type at $240 and the Vredestein at $105. Apparently neither of these are "perfect" for 914 2.0's.

http://store.coker.com/search.php?mode=sea...bstring=165HR15

The S rated XZX should meet even the most discriminating judge's standards for a 1.7 with the optional 5.5" wheels or a 1.8.

[Tom_T]

The Michelin 165SR15 XZX sold by Coker at a mere $169 is a tubless tire.

http://store.coker.com/search.php?mode=sea...bstring=165SR15

For those who need H rated 165's they have the XAS tube type at $240 and the Vredestein at $105. Apparently neither of these are "perfect" for 914 2.0's.

http://store.coker.com/search.php?mode=sea...bstring=165HR15

The S rated XZX should meet even the most discriminating judge's standards for a 1.7 with the optional 5.5" wheels or a 1.8.

Jim - the problem with that tire is that it's SR rated - not the HR spec. for 2L 914/4s - ergo I didn't include it, because it's not the correct tire for 914-2.0/914S models, but it's probably an acceptable "upgrade" for 914-1.7L cars - but I do not know how CW would rate points for it???

[Porsche Rescue]

You mean it is an "upgrade" because it is tubeless? I am still not convinced that all 914-4's did not come with tubless tires as OE. I realize the 2.0's call for H's which is why I included the less than perfect options of the XAS and the Vredestein.

[Pat Garvey]

You mean it is an "upgrade" because it is tubeless? I am still not convinced that all 914-4's did not come with tubless tires as OE. I realize the 2.0's call for H's which is why I included the less than perfect options of the XAS and the Vredestein.

Tom,

ALL early 914's came with tubes in the tires - ALL! Why? - I have no idea, because the wheels were set for tubeless. Fact is, if you have an early 914 (and I don't know when "early" ended), to be 100% purist you'll need to have tube type tires.

Most of you know my feelings on this, so you can easilly whip me at a hardcore concours. So be it.