Wheels and Tires, Let's get this discussion centralized Options

[Tom_T]

Tom,

ALL early 914's came with tubes in the tires - ALL! Why? - I have no idea, because the wheels were set for tubeless. Fact is, if you have an early 914 (and I don't know when "early" ended), to be 100% purist you'll need to have tube type tires.

Most of you know my feelings on this, so you can easilly whip me at a hardcore concours. So be it.

Pat -

I think that - between your known OE fitment as an original owner 72 914, & my documentation pretty well set the intended change-over point to Tubeless at the start of the 1973 MY - along with a set of other "refinements" to the 914s, as discussed below. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

All -

The 2 marketing/sale brochures which I posted above should clearly indicate that as of the 1973 MY - Tubeless tires were the standard OE fitment on both the 1.7L & 2.0L models, and a Porsche|Audi document such as the 2 which I posted above should be incontrovertible proof to the "wankers" at PCA that they are the appropriate type of tire for the 1973 MY 914s - & probably for the following 1974-76 MYs as well.

Both the 1/73 Motor Trend & 2/73 Road & Track road tests/specs (specs ostensibly from Porsche/Audi/VW & observation on the company supplied test cars) also indicate "Dunlop" & "Dunlop SP57" tires (respectively) of the Tubeless type, thereby confirming the sales brochure's specs with 2 other independent sources. I believe that Journalism students are taught that just 1 confirmation is adequate, & I've provided 2 - 1973 "official" sales brochures with specs + 2 period magazine road test articles with specs. to confirm same.

I don't know what more I can do to "prove" to the skeptics & PCA's CW judges that the 155SR15 for 1.7L & 165HR15 for 2.0L - both in TUBELESS radial tires, is/are the proper OE fitment on the 1973 MY 914s!!?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Moreover, given that Pat's 914-1.7L is a later 1972 MY which WAS originally fitted with Tube-type tires, & a number of other things I've read said that 1973 MY was the changeover to Tubeless tires in conjunction with the "J" rims for same --- (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif) tah-dah (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif) --- I think it's safe to say that the change from "early" tube-type to "late" tubeless tires was the 1973 MY, as documented with the early-73 sales brochure's specs. As quoted from the Porsche website on the 1973 1.7 & 2.0 Models, some of those changes were:

"Modifications to the 1973 models included, for example, a 7 cm shorter rear skirt, continuous matt black bumpers and an improved gearshift mechanism, which had often been subject to criticism. For an additional charge a luxury package was also available to order, with the following features: velour carpets, sports steering wheel, central console with clock, oil thermometer and voltmeter, leather sleeve for the gear stick, two-tone horn, roll bar with vinyl covering and chrome surrounds. The sports package included alloy wheels, stabilisers on the front and rear axles and halogen headlights."

There are some possible "extra parts carry-over from pre-73 parts stocks" in some early-1973 cars built in 1972, so some could've still had the "early" non-"J" wheels with tubeless tires - I don't know? For example: the "1st 1000" +/- noted by Mike in Ceres, CA with the link to his thread have a variety of "carry-over 72 parts" on them as Porsche/VW used up their on-hand stock. Another example on 914s after the 1st 1000+/-, is my 73 2L - which was built 9/72 & has the "late" front disk brake calipers with 2 bleeder valves each, while the rear calipers are still the older 1 bleeder valve style, but it has "J" wheels & Tubeless tires.

Neither the COA nor window sticker will give that information - nor the make, nor even the fact that they were always Radials. So short of somebody coming up with another "official" Porsche &/or VW internal or spec. manual, there is no other "official" documentation to either controvert nor substantiate this marketing brochure's fitment spec.

I also have the Factory Tech Specs Book 1st Ed. dated 5/1/74 (xerox copy from AA - if anyone is interested), which lists the tire sizes/ratings as noted above - including the 165SR15 "optional upgrade" on 4.5x15 wheels for the 1.7L models. However, it is silent as to tube or tubeless, radial vs. bias ply, etc.

1972 MY owners: FYI - I also have an old xerox of the MT 5/72 Road Test Article on all 4 then available 72MY 911 (T, E, S) & 914 (1.7L) Porsches, which lists 155SR15 as the spec for the 914-1.7, but is likewise silent as to tube/tubeless or radial/other design. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As I suggested before - (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) - other owners out there should research their own MYs for the respective sales brochures, road test articles & other specs for their specific MY 914s 1970-72 & 1974-76 to add the same type of documentation for those model years - rather than debating it on an unsupported basis. Pat has provided his first hand knowledge on his 1972, & I on at least the early-1973 914s up to Jan-Feb/73 & to the end of the 73MY - unless someone else has documents to the contrary. So - come on guys & gals out there - get busy & research this online! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

Meanwhile, I'll wait for your replies with documentation to help the other MY 914 owners out there.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Tom_T]

You mean it is an "upgrade" because it is tubeless? I am still not convinced that all 914-4's did not come with tubless tires as OE. I realize the 2.0's call for H's which is why I included the less than perfect options of the XAS and the Vredestein.

No Jim, the tube or tubeless depended upon the OE tire fitment originally on the particular year & model, as per Pat & my posts above.

I just meant that the 165SR15 was an "Factory Option" upgrade available for 1.7L & 1.8L 914s - on either the stock 4.5x15 &/or "later stock" 5.5x15 steelies, &/or on optional 4-Lug 5.5x15 Steelie, Chromie, Mahle, Pedrini or Fuchs 2L Alloys - as appropriate to the car's MY; which I've read in documents & articles, etc.

The SR speed rating was used on the 1.7 & 1.8 engined models, because they had a lower top speed which fit within the SR's 112 mph "cap", while the 2L's 115 mph spec top speed exceeded that for the SR - & the 118 mph "T" rating was not around back then - so it was spec'd with the 165HR15 with HR's 130 mph "cap" - as shown on my gas tank tire tag pic below:




Vredestein offers both a 155SR15 & 165SR15 for 914-1.7s & 1.8s, & a 165HR15 appropriate for the 914-2.0 - & all are in the tubeless "flavor" of radials, which won't be OE fitment for early" 914s spec'd with tube-type tires (Michelin XAS, tube-types are most appropriate for those & your 1972 1.7L).

See these Vredestein pdf spec sheet links:
165SR15 "Sprint+" Tubeless Radials: (1.7/1.8 optional upgrade size/rating)
http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006...sionID=85063899

165HR15 "Classic Sprint" Tubeless Radials: (both 1.7/1.8 base & optional + 2L OE spec sizes/ratings)
http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006...sionID=85063899

Vredestein's overall Classic Tire Specs & Info. Brochure:
http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006...sionID=85063899

As your prior post on the Michelins correctly stated - the XZX & XAS leave something off spec. for the 914-2.0Ls, since the former is the wrong SR speed rating but is tubeless, while the latter is the proper 165HR15 but is tube-type.

It would seem to be prudent to try to establish Vredestein as a proper period tire manufacturer offering either OE &/or aftermarket tires of tube &/or tubeless design in the appropriate 155SR15, 165SR15 &/or 165HR15 sizes as OE spec'd. for the 914s - and perhaps for some of the various M-Options, 914/6, etc. tire fitments. I'll see if I can query them online for this & will report back any answers from same later. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

Given the above specs for the Vredesteins, I think that maybe even Pat Garvey could accede to them being safe & very drivable tires on the 914s, but he may still prefer the handling of the newer & wider low profile 195s, etc.!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[Tom_T]

Okay - (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif) - I just posted this query at the Vredestein website's contact page below:

http://www.vredestein.com/Contact_Contactformulier.asp

<snipped>
Dear Sirs/Ladies:

I understand that Vredestein has been in the tire business since 1946, but am not sure whether or not they supplied automobile tires during the 1970s, if so - whether supplied here in the USA or only to Europe/non-USA, and whether their period offerings included tires appropriate to the various Porsche/VW-Porsche 914 models produced & sold between 1969-1977.

Can you please verify if Vredestein supplied either OE &/or Aftermarket Tires during the 1970's (OE - 1969-1977) for the Porsche (USA) &/or Porsche/VW (Europe & World) model 914 cars? If so, can uyou please provide documentation on such, and on which sizes & types were available during that period, such as: 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 175/70VR15, etc.; whether they were tube &/or tubeless, radial &/or other designs; as well as where (e.g.: Europe, USA, etc.) & during which years such were available (if any).

We are trying to establish that Vredestein's current "Sprint+" &/or "Classic Sprint" tires are acceptable current offerings of an acceptable OE &/or period manufacturer of tires for these cars, for the various Porsche concours shows.

Documentation on official Vredestein company letterhead &/or period advertisements, brochures & spec. sheets would be most helpful to 914 owners in this regard - if you can supply such documents with a cover letter.

Thank You.

Sincerely,
Tom Trischler
owner: 1973 Porsche 914-2.0 (USA/Calif.)
<end snip>

We'll have to wait & see if this gets us anywhere! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Tom_T]

Okay folks - I'm looking at the following "official" 914 Marketing brochures at Jeff Bownslby's webpage link below:

http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Brochures.htm


It would appear from this, that in the USA at least, there was perhaps a CHOICE of tube or tubeless tires on 914s between 1970-1972 MY, per these:

1970 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_70USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_70USA2-06.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_70USA3-18.jpg

1971 MY Spec. Sheets:
> These are very hard to read the Specs on this MY. If anyone has a more legible 1971 MY Spec sheet, please post it or a link thereto here!
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_71USA1-14.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_71USA2-06.jpg

1972 MY Spec. Sheets:
- Pat, these appear to Spec tubeless for 1972 MY? ...could yours have been tubeless due to the chrome wheels which you got?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_72USA1-02.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_72USA2-12.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...Bro_72C1-04.jpg

1973 MY Spec. Sheets:
as I had previously posted those links/pages above
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_73USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_73USA2-12.jpg

1974 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_74USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_74USA2-21.JPG
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_74USA2-22.JPG

1975 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_75USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_75USA2-21.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_75USA2-22.jpg

1976 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_76USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_76USA2-20.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_76USA2-21.jpg


Based upon the above specs for USA 914s, it would appear that the "stock" or "base level" tire & wheel fitment for the 1970-76 914s were as follows:

1970:
1.7L --- 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
914/6 - 5.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tires with Tubes
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.7 & 6

1971: - this one is hardly legible, but appears to be the same as the prior 1970 MY's Specs??
1.7L --- 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
914/6 - 5.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tires with Tubes
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.7 & 6

1972:
1.7L - 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost

1973:
1.7L - 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Fuchs 2L Style) Forged Light Alloy Wheels*
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on the 1.7 & standard on the 2.0
* Note that 1973 MY was the only one where the Fuchs 2L Alloys, as a part of the Appearance Group & Performance Group Option Sets, all of which were included in that MY's 2L base price as "standard" or "included" options - per the following brochure page links. Starting in the 1974 to 1976 MYs, these were part or all made "options at additional cost," as noted in each year's brochure specs. &/or text.
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_73USA1-03.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_73USA2-11.jpg

1974:
1.8L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.8 & 2.0

1975:
1.8L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.8 & 2.0

1976:
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on the 2.0


NOTE: For those who had a different fitment from the above & at these Porsche+Audi sales brochures' info., of the standard/base level wheels &/or tires on your 914s when new, was either the result of: a particular option of wheels &/or tires fitted to the car, Factory substitutions based upon tire availability at the time of production of your particular car, &/or due to the dealer shenanigans in swapping &/or outright stealing of the proper wheels/tires for the car, etc.

As I understand how PCA et al look at the "proper wheel & tire fitment" for a particular car, it should conform to either the above standard/base level fitments - unless the Munroney Window Sticker, Dealer Bill of Sale, COA &/or other documentation can prove otherwise, in which case that is the proper wheel/tire fitment under the CW rules.
-- Please correct me if I'm wrong Pat & other CWs!


Again - the sales brochures & marketing documents at this web link below are EXCELLENT resources for the OE fitment & period/MY options & accessories available for the 1970-76 914s!!!! Look at them if you haven't already! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)


Disbelieve if you wish - but look at these & other "official" documentation before you challenge these authentic PORSCHE+AUDI documents - & NO MORE "shooting of the messenger" PLEEZ!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) So now the rest of you 1970-72 & 1974-76 MY 914 owners can do the more detailed research, since I've given you a start here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Porsche Rescue]

So, it appears an early 4 (MY '70) had 4.5"J wheels with 155SR tubeless tires as my 5/70 production car does. And sixes had H tires with tubes.
I again argue that for any four the Michelin XZX tubeless 165SR is the best and closest option (no 155 available in Michelin XZX). And for cars with 5.5" factory wheels the 165 was correct.

The first optional alloys were 5.5 Pedrinis on the four, for sure available on '71 model year cars. Don't think they existed for '70 and I know they didn't in June '70 when I bought a car and had dealer installed chrome wheels. If factory chrome or alloy had been available I would have ordered them. Rivieras were the first alloy's to be seen on the earliest 914's.

[Tom_T]

So, it appears an early 4 (MY '70) had 4.5"J wheels with 155SR tubeless tires as my 5/70 production car does. And sixes had H tires with tubes.
I again argue that for any four the Michelin XZX tubeless 165SR is the best and closest option (no 155 available in Michelin XZX). And for cars with 5.5" factory wheels the 165 was correct.

The first optional alloys were 5.5 Pedrinis on the four, for sure available on '71 model year cars. Don't think they existed for '70 and I know they didn't in June '70 when I bought a car and had dealer installed chrome wheels. If factory chrome or alloy had been available I would have ordered them. Rivieras were the first alloy's to be seen on the earliest 914's.

Jim, I agree - unless Vredestein comes back with good news on their 1970s tire production series - in which case they can hit dead-on for each of the 914/4 & 6 tires listed in the spec'd tubeless flavor, & do so at far less cost.

Of course the XZXs can do so too for the 1.7Ls & 1.8Ls -but not for the 2.0Ls out there. I had/have some 1983 era Kleber V10s in the wrong speed rating of 165SR15, because they didn't have an HR back then either, & Michelins, Dunlops, etc. were only available by then in VERY pricey 165VR15 at the time!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

The Vredestein 165HR15 tubeless is the only correct configuration for the 2Ls, while Michelin offers the proper size/rating 165HR15 in tube-type - which may offer mounting/tube-pinching problems as I've noted before, as well as tubes being incorrect configuration for the 2Ls. Ergo - it is an unfair lose-lose proposition for us with the 2Ls, unless Vredestein can be proven as an available 1970's tire in that size/rating/type. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Maybe Vredestein will come back with good news for everybody's sake!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

So..........the search goes on for me as a 2L owner/restorer! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

As for the 70MY Alloys - you might also check around online, because I seem to recall from somewhere (sorry - no links for this at a hand), that the 4-Lug Pedrini's were available at some point for that first 1970MY, although it could've been only in limited numbers & areas? The early 914/4s looked really sharp with them on, but I don't know how the CW judging works if the wheel was available but is not on your COA/Sticker/BoS or something???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Maybe check around at the sub-headings of Bowlsby's site to see if it's referenced there? see: http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/

[Porsche Rescue]

Pedrinis on a two-owner '71 with 20 year old Michelin 165's. I bought it in '02 and drove it from Chicago to Portland, OR. The seller had two of the tires dismounted and "inspected" at a tire shop. Risky trip as I think back on it, snow in Wyoming and 80 mph across Nebraska, but I made it ok. When I sold it a year later the buyer (a senior woman!) flew to Portland and drove it to Maine on the same tires with no tire problems. She might have been Irish!

[Pat Garvey]

OK......

All this talk about Vredestiens bothers me (but that's just me). I can't swear to Canada or the rest od the world, but I have NEVER seen a Vredestein tire mounted to (as orginal) a US 914. Never!

Now, I'm not 100% perfect in all of my recollections, but I'm pretty good.

So....someone show me a window sticker of a US 914 with these tires. All it takes is one & I'll believe, but it must be a US delivery 914.

Show me!
Pat

[Porsche Rescue]

I don't think anyone is contending Vredesteins were OE on a 914. But possibly they were available in the '70's and "might" pass as acceptable in a judging. Again, I think the Michelin XZX would do better, especially on a four which came with S rated tires. And it would be the best available on a 2.0 which came with H's. It seems definite that the "perfect" OE tire is NLA.

[Jasfsmith]

Tom:

Great work on organizing the above material, however I still challenge the "authentication" of the marketing material. They are just that "marketing material". (I guess my poor impression of marketing people is showing. They'll tell you anything to get you to buy something. <grin>).

I agree that every CW entrant should do research on their specific car and assemble any data possible to sustain their position on the originality, as well as ownership and maintenance records, into a presentable book should the time come where such info is necessary to prove to a judge a particular point. I have one primarily to show the few differences between a US spec and my Euro spec 914-6 (and it has helped).

Overall, however, I think your missing the point. I think that it would be asking a bit much to expect judges to know the specific tyre manufacturer (yet alone whether it should be tube-type or tubeless) of a particular model year 914. Knowledge of the correct wheel type/size and tyre profile/size would be expected at a top notch judging. We should be so lucky to get judges that have that knowledge.

Just for giggles, look at the factory parts and workshop manuals. They provide a complete list of wheels available (sorry, no chromies for the 4 cyl 914, wish they did as they look great), and tyre sizes recommended.

No, I'm not "shooting of the messenger". Just trying to bug the moderator with the length of this discussion. <grin>

[Tom_T]

EDITED - DELETE

[Tom_T]

OK......

All this talk about Vredestiens bothers me (but that's just me). I can't swear to Canada or the rest od the world, but I have NEVER seen a Vredestein tire mounted to (as orginal) a US 914. Never!

Now, I'm not 100% perfect in all of my recollections, but I'm pretty good.

So....someone show me a window sticker of a US 914 with these tires. All it takes is one & I'll believe, but it must be a US delivery 914.

Show me!
Pat

NO SUCH THING - every Munroney Window Sticker which I've erver seen, at best - only gives the tire size/rating - period! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

What about 1969-77 USA ads for Vredesteins of the proper tires from period publications??? ...would that "CW qualify" them for judging?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

So Pat - for my indubitably un-CW knowledge (still learning here) - then the CW show judges would still ding the 914-2.0s for Vredesteins (at least at the higher level shows) - even if they were available outside of the USA? ...& even if they were available aftermarket but NOT an OE tire for US 914s?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Heck - if I could safely use a correct size/rating Michelin XAS 165HR15 (or tbd Pirelli in that size) with or without tubes - & not be CW judging dinged - then I MIGHT be willing to pop the extra $1600+ over the $550 Vredesteins - since I'd need all 5 tires new. However, if I'm getting dinged either way, then I'd opt for the 165HR15 Vredesteins!

Since I DO plan to take her on the open road at least some, & I have had 'er over the 112mph SR max (but will deny it if pressed by the law! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) )! ...so I'd really like to have the proper size/rated tires on there - regardless of maker!

BTW - as the projected costs repairing & restoring my early-73 914-2.0/"914S" has mounted, I'm looking to try to restore to a CW quality to match that cost & retain value better - although I may never show for more than just fun, but someone more anal than I may want to do so in the future!?

However - I have to find & buy both the 5 "missing" Fuchs 2L Alloys from mine, plus 5 tires -- & I find it hard to justify $1200+ for restored wheels & $2400+ for 5 Michelins/Pirellis with tubes/etc. - i.e.: $3600-4000+ for wheels & tires alone - if they're still NOT correct CW!

In that case for me, I'd either go with the OE size/rating/tubeless 165HR15 tubeless Vredesteins (sorry Pat), or else an upgraded size HR or VR in the 185/70x15 or 195/65x15 offering the min. available speedo/odo error (0.8% & 1.6% respectively) from another current tire maker as "modern tires" per Pat & some others here (sorry other CW hardliners)!

Otherwise, it's just self-punishment & self-flagellation (in both senses!) to spend 4x the cost for an incorrect tire! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Frankly - as a logical person (I think (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) ) - I do not see the problem with Vredestein or any other manufacturer which might have been around then, who decides to mfgr repro tires today with the necessary DOT approval!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

When there is no "perfect solution" - then you make Lemonaid & do the best you can. ...or make a "Shandy"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

[Tom_T]

Tom:

Great work on organizing the above material, however I still challenge the "authentication" of the marketing material. They are just that "marketing material". (I guess my poor impression of marketing people is showing. They'll tell you anything to get you to buy something. <grin>).

I agree that every CW entrant should do research on their specific car and assemble any data possible to sustain their position on the originality, as well as ownership and maintenance records, into a presentable book should the time come where such info is necessary to prove to a judge a particular point. I have one primarily to show the few differences between a US spec and my Euro spec 914-6 (and it has helped).

Overall, however, I think your missing the point. I think that it would be asking a bit much to expect judges to know the specific tyre manufacturer (yet alone whether it should be tube-type or tubeless) of a particular model year 914. Knowledge of the correct wheel type/size and tyre profile/size would be expected at a top notch judging. We should be so lucky to get judges that have that knowledge.

Just for giggles, look at the factory parts and workshop manuals. They provide a complete list of wheels available (sorry, no chromies for the 4 cyl 914, wish they did as they look great), and tyre sizes recommended.

No, I'm not "shooting of the messenger". Just trying to bug the moderator with the length of this discussion. <grin>

Thanx! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I just meant the marketing brochures as a starting point, & another alternative document which at least shows that tubeless in all of the various 914/4 sizes were available - if not the intended base-spec. tires/wheel combos. I think that those could be used to justify a particular tire/wheel for judges/challenges. ...or should be - but then we know haw PCA is on "should-be's"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

As for tube vs. tubeless - I still have to question whether tube can be used at all on the proper fitment Fuchs 2L Alloys - period - because that's what I've always been told "back in the day" & have read recently!? Does anyone out there have verified info on this fact???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I still need to order the factory parts/service manuals on CD from AA. Maybe you could post those sizes/types/combos here from the manuals for everybody else, in order to add to this ever expanding "body of knowledge ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) ?)"???

As to the length - Pat's opening post was started to consolidate the discussion here, so it now goes on & on!!!! ...maybe he got more than he bargained for!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tom_T]

Tom:

Overall, however, I think your missing the point. I think that it would be asking a bit much to expect judges to know the specific tyre manufacturer (yet alone whether it should be tube-type or tubeless) of a particular model year 914. Knowledge of the correct wheel type/size and tyre profile/size would be expected at a top notch judging. We should be so lucky to get judges that have that knowledge.

OK - I think I saw what you're talking about above, when I looked at the local PCA Zone 8 Concours Rules from 2009, which I suspect are similar for the other zones as well. Specifically, they say: "Judging shall be based on preparation and maintenance, not on originality or deviations from stock. Personalization or modification of the vehicle is not penalized if it is done in a competent and professional manner."

I've added the bold for emphasis, & if this is a general PCA rule for judging, then what truly is the big deal on any of this for the Full, Street, Restoration (?), & other classes - except for the "Preservation Class" where everything has to be as original as possible??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

If that is the national rule as well, then is it just the big regional, zone or national championships where PCA judges exert other rules &/or higher standards than indicated by the above??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Sorry to be so ignorant on this, but I've never been involved in PCA nor other car clubs & shows myself, but have gone & (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif) at many!

BTW - I was also encouraged, when I noticed that PCA Zone 8/Orange Coast offers a "Wash & Shine" div. to get your toe wet; & a "Street" div. if a 'slightly less-anal 914-nut' such as myself want to go the step further; & that the local & lower level PCA shows "...are open to any person..." - which I assume means non-PCA members to try it out (great idea for recruiting skeptics like me - btw)! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So that, plus the idea that I can "personalize" my 914 a bit in good taste - has me a happy camper! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Aside from getting a set of good tires of my choice which are a proper size, speed rating, tube/tubeless per what fits/works properly on those Fuchs 2Ls, which I still need to find....

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) ....then, how about some "tasteful" hand-pinstripes along the fender lines!!?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif)

...or is that going too far afield for the typical judges???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[Jasfsmith]

NO SUCH THING - every Munroney Window Sticker which I've erver seen, at best - only gives the tire size/rating - period! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

What about 1969-77 USA ads for Vredesteins of the proper tires from period publications??? ...would that "CW qualify" them for judging?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

So Pat - for my indubitably un-CW knowledge (still learning here) - then the CW show judges would still ding the 914-2.0s for Vredesteins (at least at the higher level shows) - even if they were available outside of the USA? ...& even if they were available aftermarket but NOT an OE tire for US 914s?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Heck - if I could safely use a correct size/rating Michelin XAS 165HR15 (or tbd Pirelli in that size) with or without tubes - & not be CW judging dinged - then I MIGHT be willing to pop the extra $1600+ over the $550 Vredesteins - since I'd need all 5 tires new. However, if I'm getting dinged either way, then I'd opt for the 165HR15 Vredesteins!

Since I DO plan to take her on the open road at least some, & I have had 'er over the 112mph SR max (but will deny it if pressed by the law! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) )! ...so I'd really like to have the proper size/rated tires on there - regardless of maker!

BTW - as the projected costs repairing & restoring my early-73 914-2.0/"914S" has mounted, I'm looking to try to restore to a CW quality to match that cost & retain value better - although I may never show for more than just fun, but someone more anal than I may want to do so in the future!?

However - I have to find & buy both the 5 "missing" Fuchs 2L Alloys from mine, plus 5 tires -- & I find it hard to justify $1200+ for restored wheels & $2400+ for 5 Michelins/Pirellis with tubes/etc. - i.e.: $3600-4000+ for wheels & tires alone - if they're still NOT correct CW!

In that case for me, I'd either go with the OE size/rating/tubeless 165HR15 tubeless Vredesteins (sorry Pat), or else an upgraded size HR or VR in the 185/70x15 or 195/65x15 offering the min. available speedo/odo error (0.8% & 1.6% respectively) from another current tire maker as "modern tires" per Pat & some others here (sorry other CW hardliners)!

Frankly - as a logical person (I think (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) ) - I do not see the problem with Vredestein or any other manufacturer which might have been around then, who decides to mfgr repro tires today with the necessary DOT approval!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I would not expect you to be dinged with either the Vredesteins or Michelin XAS in 165HR15 size. Anything else might result in a deduction.

Speciality tire producers such as Coker Tire make a living on buying the reproduction rights as they see a nitch market. Time between runs are determined by demand I suspect.

[Jasfsmith]

OK - I think I saw what you're talking about above, when I looked at the local PCA Zone 8 Concours Rules from 2009, which I suspect are similar for the other zones as well. Specifically, they say: "Judging shall be based on preparation and maintenance, not on originality or deviations from stock. Personalization or modification of the vehicle is not penalized if it is done in a competent and professional manner."

I've added the bold for emphasis, & if this is a general PCA rule for judging, then what truly is the big deal on any of this for the Full, Street, Restoration (?), & other classes - except for the "Preservation Class" where everything has to be as original as possible??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

If that is the national rule as well, then is it just the big regional, zone or national championships where PCA judges exert other rules &/or higher standards than indicated by the above??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Sorry to be so ignorant on this, but I've never been involved in PCA nor other car clubs & shows myself, but have gone & (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif) at many!

BTW - I was also encouraged, when I noticed that PCA Zone 8/Orange Coast offers a "Wash & Shine" div. to get your toe wet; & a "Street" div. if a 'slightly less-anal 914-nut' such as myself want to go the step further; & that the local & lower level PCA shows "...are open to any person..." - which I assume means non-PCA members to try it out (great idea for recruiting skeptics like me - btw)! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Complete PCA Parade judging classifications and score sheets for all the classes can be downloaded from the PCA.ORG site.

PCA Zone 8's "Wash& Shine" and "Street" divisions sound like other Zone's concour offerings in attempt to encourage everyone to become anal as one wants to be about this stuff. The national level is another level up (perhaps a bigger jump than the "Wash & Shine" to "Street" mind you.).

Just think, once you've moved into the national Concour judged events, you be at the top of the anal world and with the likes of Pat Garvey. <grin>

[Tom_T]

EDITED - DELETE

[Pat Garvey]

NO SUCH THING - every Munroney Window Sticker which I've erver seen, at best - only gives the tire size/rating - period! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

What about 1969-77 USA ads for Vredesteins of the proper tires from period publications??? ...would that "CW qualify" them for judging?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

So Pat - for my indubitably un-CW knowledge (still learning here) - then the CW show judges would still ding the 914-2.0s for Vredesteins (at least at the higher level shows) - even if they were available outside of the USA? ...& even if they were available aftermarket but NOT an OE tire for US 914s?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Heck - if I could safely use a correct size/rating Michelin XAS 165HR15 (or tbd Pirelli in that size) with or without tubes - & not be CW judging dinged - then I MIGHT be willing to pop the extra $1600+ over the $550 Vredesteins - since I'd need all 5 tires new. However, if I'm getting dinged either way, then I'd opt for the 165HR15 Vredesteins!

Since I DO plan to take her on the open road at least some, & I have had 'er over the 112mph SR max (but will deny it if pressed by the law! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) )! ...so I'd really like to have the proper size/rated tires on there - regardless of maker!

BTW - as the projected costs repairing & restoring my early-73 914-2.0/"914S" has mounted, I'm looking to try to restore to a CW quality to match that cost & retain value better - although I may never show for more than just fun, but someone more anal than I may want to do so in the future!?

However - I have to find & buy both the 5 "missing" Fuchs 2L Alloys from mine, plus 5 tires -- & I find it hard to justify $1200+ for restored wheels & $2400+ for 5 Michelins/Pirellis with tubes/etc. - i.e.: $3600-4000+ for wheels & tires alone - if they're still NOT correct CW!

In that case for me, I'd either go with the OE size/rating/tubeless 165HR15 tubeless Vredesteins (sorry Pat), or else an upgraded size HR or VR in the 185/70x15 or 195/65x15 offering the min. available speedo/odo error (0.8% & 1.6% respectively) from another current tire maker as "modern tires" per Pat & some others here (sorry other CW hardliners)!

Frankly - as a logical person (I think (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) ) - I do not see the problem with Vredestein or any other manufacturer which might have been around then, who decides to mfgr repro tires today with the necessary DOT approval!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I would not expect you to be dinged with either the Vredesteins or Michelin XAS in 165HR15 size. Anything else might result in a deduction.

Speciality tire producers such as Coker Tire make a living on buying the reproduction rights as they see a nitch market. Time between runs are determined by demand I suspect.

Oh crap, here we go again!

I'll not fault Coker for what they do, and they do it well.

BUT! (get that - full caps). Vredesteins were not available on US 914's in 74 (maybe never for the US market). So...what you will have is a 914 that will get dinged badly at PCA Parade levels. Yeah, James get's away with his tires because he has a euro car.

XAS's (tube type) are the only way to go if you don't want to give away 3 points. Vredesteins, in my book (since they were never original to US 914's) will cost you the same loss.

So, why not (and I know I'm a heretic here) put something on your 914 that is safe, and contemporary. And, something that fills the wheel wells (I said I was being a heretic), handles great & is safe.

Your choice, but I know what I've picked out for my 72. Don'y ask, beacause I won't tell.

Seriously, if I were to try for a third win at Parade level, I'd squander the two grand for inferior tires/tubes/moumting/balancing. Then, I'd come home & sell them, and take my losses.

But, that's just me. "I don need no stinkin trophis no more".
Pat

[Tom_T]

I'm leaning toward the 185/70VR15 Michelin XAS or XWX, because they're tubeless, were part of the 914's available options & fit the Porsche's own recco's for alternative tires for the 914s from 1992 (although they also recco 195/65HR-VR15), but have the smallest speedo/odo error of 0.8% (1/2 that of 195/65's) & will still handle a bit better than the stock 165HR15s. Of course they're still considered special production vintage tires and expensive as all get out! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

According to the 914 SIG webpage on 914 optional eqpt., a similar size was available from Porsche under the M471 option package, as follows:
"914/6 GT Equipment-Steel flares, 6Jx15 Alloy wheels with 185/75VR15 tires, 5.5Jx15 Alloy wheels with 165HR15 tires, 66mm wheel bolts, 21mm wheel spacers front and rear"

....yes, I know, that's for the 914/6 GT - not the 914/4's......but still? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
I'll bet there's someone out there who ordered 185s on a 2L at some point!?

Is that what you were thinking Pat???? ...or were you going full-tilt 195/65VR15 Ultra High Performance tires??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
Why all the secrecy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Here's the Porsche letter re: alt. tire sizes in German (also from 914 SIG website):



(IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[Porsche Rescue]

The letter should be sufficient to convince PCA that a properly rated 195/65 is an acceptable replacement for a NLA tire.