Wheels and Tires, Let's get this discussion centralized Options

[Jasfsmith]

The letter should be sufficient to convince PCA that a properly rated 195/65 is an acceptable replacement for a NLA tire.

Again. I contend that Porsche never specified a tyre manufacturer, and any tire that meets there specs and are "period" correct will meet the judges approval. 195/65 will likely not.

Anyone here able to translate the letter?

[Tom_T]

The letter should be sufficient to convince PCA that a properly rated 195/65 is an acceptable replacement for a NLA tire.

One would think so, but then...

Not being fluent/reader of German, I can't say what it says, other than it references 195x15 & 185x15 sizes as alternates & is on Porsche letterhead. Also the PCA Zone 8 Concours Rules excerpt which I posted above would lead one to believe that such changes & deviations are not to be marked down, unless there's a national rule to the contrary!?

However, numerous others who have shown their 914s & done the PCA Parades have already said that they don't accept those sizes.

EDITED 3-24-12

[Tom_T]

EDITED - DELETE

[Tom_T]

The letter should be sufficient to convince PCA that a properly rated 195/65 is an acceptable replacement for a NLA tire.

Again. I contend that Porsche never specified a tyre manufacturer, and any tire that meets there specs and are "period" correct will meet the judges approval. 195/65 will likely not.

Anyone here able to translate the letter?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
As everything posted & everyone here has said, they mounted several brands/makers' tires on both 911s/912s & 914s, etc.

Many here have said that they had Michelins X-- & Continentals as OE, plus the road test articles on the 914s often listed Dunlop SP57s - as have several other original owners here.

I'm not positive if Semperits were also in that OE crowd as well, but I think so because of my "early" spare (Semperit M166) & other original owner 914ers whom I've known who've claimed so (although these could've been dealer switches, same as the missing alloys were).

And then there were the plethora of other available tires of the 1970s - many available in the OE sizes/ratings - to which people switched for the "next set(s) of tires" - including Semperits (tire tests of that era rated better or equal to the OEs above), Pirellis, Coopers, etc.!

[Tom_T]

FYI All Y'all (that's plural for Y'all - ya know!?) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Here's a cut-n-paste of what I've heard back from Vredestein by email, & my request for additional clarification on their period production of aftermarket tires, & am still awaiting a response.

As generally anticipated, they were not OE tire suppliers according to the writer.

<snipped>
Dear Ms. Walters,

Thank you for the clarification regarding the Vredestein tires not being OE on the Porsche 914s of 1969-1977 era. Frankly I thought that was a long shot, and probably only applicable in European delivery cars - if at all.

However, another aspect to my question was whether or not Vredestein produced aftermarket sports car tires during that 1970's period - in any of the 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 185/70VR15 &/or other appropriate sizes, as either tube &/or tubeless types - which could have been found on the Porsche 914s as aftermarket replacements? If so, then please specify what was available during the 1970s and where they were offered geographically.

As you noted, for many vehicles the actual OE tires are not offered in the exact specified fitment by the OE suppliers at this time. This is especially true for the 1973-76 model year Porsche 914-2.0 vehicles for USA delivery (denoted as "VW-Porsche" outside of the USA), which had specified the 165HR15 Tubeless Radial Tires - often in the Dunlop SP 57, as well as in various iterations of Michelin, Continental and perhaps Semperit, Cooper and other OE suppliers. None of these today offers that specific proper size and speed rating in a tubeless tire, although Michelin does offer an XAS tube-type 165HR15, but I understand that tube-type tires cannot be used on the proper OE 4-Lug Fuchs 2.0 Forged Light Alloy Wheels, as well as for other wheels designed for the tubeless tires. Ergo, for my case, Vredestein's "Classic Sprint" is currently the only offering in that proper OE specified size/rating/tubeless tire available, to my knowledge based upon research to date.

Thank you in advance for this additional information.

Sincerely,
Tom Trischler
1973 Porsche 914-2.0 owner
Orange, Calif., USA
///////


-----Original Message-----
From: "Wolters R."
Sent: Jun 17, 2009 5:34 PM
To: catrischler@earthlink.net
Subject: RE: Algemeen contact formulier



Hello Mr Trischler,

Although we presently supply the Sprint Classic in several dimensions that are suitable for fitment on a VW-Porsche to my knowledge we have never supplied these tires as OE fitment. When it comes to getting vehicles in concours condition where by it is necessarry to have OE tires fitted to the vehicle, we are sorry to have to disappoint you. Having said that, we doubt that very many of the OE type tires are still on the market today.
As you mention we do have the Sprint Classsic and Sprint + available in several of the dimensions that you mention, and they are an excellent alternative for OE tires as they assentially are a modern tire in a period look, built on modern machines with very small tolerances.
Thank you very much for your interest in our tires
Sincerely

René Wolters

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Ligtenberg M. Namens Info Vredestein
Verzonden: maandag 15 juni 2009 2:45
Aan: Customer US
Onderwerp: FW: Algemeen contact formulier



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: catrischler@earthlink.net [mailto:catrischler@earthlink.net]
Verzonden: zondag 14 juni 2009 0:07
Aan: Info Vredestein
Onderwerp: Algemeen contact formulier


Algemeen contact formulier
Naam/Name: Mr. Tom Trischler
Email/E-mail address: catrischler@earthlink.net
Adres/Address: 703 N. Shaffer St.
Postcode/Postal code: 92867
Plaats/City: Orange, CA
Land/Country: USA
Telefoon/Telephone: 714-469-6769
Fax/Fax: 714-633-5050
Opmerkingen/Remarks: Dear Sirs/Ladies: I understand that Vredestein has been in the tire business since 1946, but am not sure whether or not they supplied automobile tires during the 1970s, if so - whether supplied here in the USA or only to Europe/non-USA, and whether their period offerings included tires appropriate to the various Porsche/VW-Porsche 914 models produced & sold between 1969-1977. Can you please verify if Vredestein supplied either OE &/or Aftermarket Tires during the 1970's (OE - 1969-1977) for the Porsche (USA) &/or Porsche/VW (Europe & World) model 914 cars? If so, can uyou please provide documentation on such, and on which sizes & types were available during that period, such as: 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 175/70VR15, etc.; whether they were tube &/or tubeless, radial &/or other designs; as well as where (e.g.: Europe, USA, etc.) & during which years such were available (if any). We are trying to establish that Vredestein's current "Sprint+" &/or "Classic Sprint" tires are acceptable current offerings of an acceptable OE &/or period manufacturer of tires for these cars, for the various Porsche concours shows. Documentation on official Vredestein company letterhead &/or period advertisements, brochures & spec. sheets would be most helpful to 914 owners in this regard - if you can supply such documents with a cover letter. Thank You. Sincerely, Tom Trischler owner: 1973 Porsche 914-2.0 (USA/Calif.)


VREDESTEIN TYRES
13 BRIDGE STREET
METUCHEN N.J. 08840
U.S.A.

T: 732 549 2440
F: 732 549 2450
WoltersR@vredestein.com
http://www.vredestein.com/

The information contained in this message may be confidential and is intended to be exclusively for the addressee. Should you receive this message unintentionally, please do not use the contents herein and notify the sender immediately by return e-mail.
<end snip>

[Tom_T]

FYI All Y'all (that's plural for Y'all - ya know!?) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Here's a cut-n-paste of what I've heard back from Vredestein by email, & my request for additional clarification on their period production of aftermarket tires, & am still awaiting a response.

As generally anticipated, they were not OE tire suppliers according to the writer.

<snipped>
Dear Ms. Walters,

Thank you for the clarification regarding the Vredestein tires not being OE on the Porsche 914s of 1969-1977 era. Frankly I thought that was a long shot, and probably only applicable in European delivery cars - if at all.

However, another aspect to my question was whether or not Vredestein produced aftermarket sports car tires during that 1970's period - in any of the 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 185/70VR15 &/or other appropriate sizes, as either tube &/or tubeless types - which could have been found on the Porsche 914s as aftermarket replacements? If so, then please specify what was available during the 1970s and where they were offered geographically.

As you noted, for many vehicles the actual OE tires are not offered in the exact specified fitment by the OE suppliers at this time. This is especially true for the 1973-76 model year Porsche 914-2.0 vehicles for USA delivery (denoted as "VW-Porsche" outside of the USA), which had specified the 165HR15 Tubeless Radial Tires - often in the Dunlop SP 57, as well as in various iterations of Michelin, Continental and perhaps Semperit, Cooper and other OE suppliers. None of these today offers that specific proper size and speed rating in a tubeless tire, although Michelin does offer an XAS tube-type 165HR15, but I understand that tube-type tires cannot be used on the proper OE 4-Lug Fuchs 2.0 Forged Light Alloy Wheels, as well as for other wheels designed for the tubeless tires. Ergo, for my case, Vredestein's "Classic Sprint" is currently the only offering in that proper OE specified size/rating/tubeless tire available, to my knowledge based upon research to date.

Thank you in advance for this additional information.

Sincerely,
Tom Trischler
1973 Porsche 914-2.0 owner
Orange, Calif., USA
///////


-----Original Message-----
From: "Wolters R."
Sent: Jun 17, 2009 5:34 PM
To: catrischler@earthlink.net
Subject: RE: Algemeen contact formulier



Hello Mr Trischler,

Although we presently supply the Sprint Classic in several dimensions that are suitable for fitment on a VW-Porsche to my knowledge we have never supplied these tires as OE fitment. When it comes to getting vehicles in concours condition where by it is necessarry to have OE tires fitted to the vehicle, we are sorry to have to disappoint you. Having said that, we doubt that very many of the OE type tires are still on the market today.
As you mention we do have the Sprint Classsic and Sprint + available in several of the dimensions that you mention, and they are an excellent alternative for OE tires as they assentially are a modern tire in a period look, built on modern machines with very small tolerances.
Thank you very much for your interest in our tires
Sincerely

René Wolters

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Ligtenberg M. Namens Info Vredestein
Verzonden: maandag 15 juni 2009 2:45
Aan: Customer US
Onderwerp: FW: Algemeen contact formulier



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: catrischler@earthlink.net [mailto:catrischler@earthlink.net]
Verzonden: zondag 14 juni 2009 0:07
Aan: Info Vredestein
Onderwerp: Algemeen contact formulier


Algemeen contact formulier
Naam/Name: Mr. Tom Trischler
Email/E-mail address: catrischler@earthlink.net
Adres/Address: 703 N. Shaffer St.
Postcode/Postal code: 92867
Plaats/City: Orange, CA
Land/Country: USA
Telefoon/Telephone: 714-469-6769
Fax/Fax: 714-633-5050
Opmerkingen/Remarks: Dear Sirs/Ladies: I understand that Vredestein has been in the tire business since 1946, but am not sure whether or not they supplied automobile tires during the 1970s, if so - whether supplied here in the USA or only to Europe/non-USA, and whether their period offerings included tires appropriate to the various Porsche/VW-Porsche 914 models produced & sold between 1969-1977. Can you please verify if Vredestein supplied either OE &/or Aftermarket Tires during the 1970's (OE - 1969-1977) for the Porsche (USA) &/or Porsche/VW (Europe & World) model 914 cars? If so, can uyou please provide documentation on such, and on which sizes & types were available during that period, such as: 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 175/70VR15, etc.; whether they were tube &/or tubeless, radial &/or other designs; as well as where (e.g.: Europe, USA, etc.) & during which years such were available (if any). We are trying to establish that Vredestein's current "Sprint+" &/or "Classic Sprint" tires are acceptable current offerings of an acceptable OE &/or period manufacturer of tires for these cars, for the various Porsche concours shows. Documentation on official Vredestein company letterhead &/or period advertisements, brochures & spec. sheets would be most helpful to 914 owners in this regard - if you can supply such documents with a cover letter. Thank You. Sincerely, Tom Trischler owner: 1973 Porsche 914-2.0 (USA/Calif.)


VREDESTEIN TYRES
13 BRIDGE STREET
METUCHEN N.J. 08840
U.S.A.

T: 732 549 2440
F: 732 549 2450
WoltersR@vredestein.com
http://www.vredestein.com/

The information contained in this message may be confidential and is intended to be exclusively for the addressee. Should you receive this message unintentionally, please do not use the contents herein and notify the sender immediately by return e-mail.
<end snip>

After resending my clarification request again this morning, I just received the following clarification for Mr. Wolters at Vredestein Tyres, which indicates that they did produce such tires during the 1970s. for sure in the SR flavor, maybe in HR, but probably not in VR (if I'm interpolating his comments correctly). Hopefully this is of some use to others out there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

If I can figure out a way to transfer his emails with the Vredestein letterhead/logo into a picture file, then I'll post it here later for others' direct print-out & use.

<snipped>
From: "Wolters R." <WoltersR@vredestein.com> [Add to Address Book]
To: Thomas Trischler <catrischler@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: 2nd Request for Clarification on 1970's Tyre Production (RE: Algemeen contact formulier)
Date: Jun 22, 2009 1:25 PM
Attachments: unknown-1 KB


Dear Mr Trischler

During the 70's we had those tire sizes you mention in our program, however to my knowledge these were S rated tires, certainly not V rated. We sold our tires mainly in Europe, however it could be that some of our products found their way to different markets, such as The US or South America. If this was the case thes tires were either sold by our export department (which handles all markets where we do not own subsidiaries), or through third parties.
Either way it is too far in the past to be able to give you exact data.
Sincerely Yours,

Mr René Wolters
<end snip>

[Pat Garvey]

Okay folks - I'm looking at the following "official" 914 Marketing brochures at Jeff Bownslby's webpage link below:

http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Brochures.htm


It would appear from this, that in the USA at least, there was perhaps a CHOICE of tube or tubeless tires on 914s between 1970-1972 MY, per these:

1970 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_70USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_70USA2-06.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_70USA3-18.jpg

1971 MY Spec. Sheets:
> These are very hard to read the Specs on this MY. If anyone has a more legible 1971 MY Spec sheet, please post it or a link thereto here!
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_71USA1-14.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_71USA2-06.jpg

1972 MY Spec. Sheets:
- Pat, these appear to Spec tubeless for 1972 MY? ...could yours have been tubeless due to the chrome wheels which you got?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_72USA1-02.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_72USA2-12.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...Bro_72C1-04.jpg

1973 MY Spec. Sheets:
as I had previously posted those links/pages above
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_73USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_73USA2-12.jpg

1974 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_74USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_74USA2-21.JPG
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_74USA2-22.JPG

1975 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_75USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_75USA2-21.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_75USA2-22.jpg

1976 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_76USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_76USA2-20.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_76USA2-21.jpg


Based upon the above specs for USA 914s, it would appear that the "stock" or "base level" tire & wheel fitment for the 1970-76 914s were as follows:

1970:
1.7L --- 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
914/6 - 5.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tires with Tubes
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.7 & 6

1971: - this one is hardly legible, but appears to be the same as the prior 1970 MY's Specs??
1.7L --- 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
914/6 - 5.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tires with Tubes
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.7 & 6

1972:
1.7L - 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost

1973:
1.7L - 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Fuchs 2L Style) Forged Light Alloy Wheels*
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on the 1.7 & standard on the 2.0
* Note that 1973 MY was the only one where the Fuchs 2L Alloys, as a part of the Appearance Group & Performance Group Option Sets, all of which were included in that MY's 2L base price as "standard" or "included" options - per the following brochure page links. Starting in the 1974 to 1976 MYs, these were part or all made "options at additional cost," as noted in each year's brochure specs. &/or text.
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_73USA1-03.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_73USA2-11.jpg

1974:
1.8L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.8 & 2.0

1975:
1.8L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.8 & 2.0

1976:
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on the 2.0


NOTE: For those who had a different fitment from the above & at these Porsche+Audi sales brochures' info., of the standard/base level wheels &/or tires on your 914s when new, was either the result of: a particular option of wheels &/or tires fitted to the car, Factory substitutions based upon tire availability at the time of production of your particular car, &/or due to the dealer shenanigans in swapping &/or outright stealing of the proper wheels/tires for the car, etc.

As I understand how PCA et al look at the "proper wheel & tire fitment" for a particular car, it should conform to either the above standard/base level fitments - unless the Munroney Window Sticker, Dealer Bill of Sale, COA &/or other documentation can prove otherwise, in which case that is the proper wheel/tire fitment under the CW rules.
-- Please correct me if I'm wrong Pat & other CWs!


Again - the sales brochures & marketing documents at this web link below are EXCELLENT resources for the OE fitment & period/MY options & accessories available for the 1970-76 914s!!!! Look at them if you haven't already! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)


Disbelieve if you wish - but look at these & other "official" documentation before you challenge these authentic PORSCHE+AUDI documents - & NO MORE "shooting of the messenger" PLEEZ!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) So now the rest of you 1970-72 & 1974-76 MY 914 owners can do the more detailed research, since I've given you a start here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

What am I missing here?

Either I'm, blind (which is pretty close to the truth), or there's no mention of optional (app group) wheels for the 72's, i.e. 5 1/2 inchers. That mandates a larger tire, such as a 165. I know it means little, but it shows that taking print as literal is not always correct. Or, did I miss it?
Pat

[Pat Garvey]

FYI All Y'all (that's plural for Y'all - ya know!?) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Here's a cut-n-paste of what I've heard back from Vredestein by email, & my request for additional clarification on their period production of aftermarket tires, & am still awaiting a response.

As generally anticipated, they were not OE tire suppliers according to the writer.

<snipped>
Dear Ms. Walters,

Thank you for the clarification regarding the Vredestein tires not being OE on the Porsche 914s of 1969-1977 era. Frankly I thought that was a long shot, and probably only applicable in European delivery cars - if at all.

However, another aspect to my question was whether or not Vredestein produced aftermarket sports car tires during that 1970's period - in any of the 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 185/70VR15 &/or other appropriate sizes, as either tube &/or tubeless types - which could have been found on the Porsche 914s as aftermarket replacements? If so, then please specify what was available during the 1970s and where they were offered geographically.

As you noted, for many vehicles the actual OE tires are not offered in the exact specified fitment by the OE suppliers at this time. This is especially true for the 1973-76 model year Porsche 914-2.0 vehicles for USA delivery (denoted as "VW-Porsche" outside of the USA), which had specified the 165HR15 Tubeless Radial Tires - often in the Dunlop SP 57, as well as in various iterations of Michelin, Continental and perhaps Semperit, Cooper and other OE suppliers. None of these today offers that specific proper size and speed rating in a tubeless tire, although Michelin does offer an XAS tube-type 165HR15, but I understand that tube-type tires cannot be used on the proper OE 4-Lug Fuchs 2.0 Forged Light Alloy Wheels, as well as for other wheels designed for the tubeless tires. Ergo, for my case, Vredestein's "Classic Sprint" is currently the only offering in that proper OE specified size/rating/tubeless tire available, to my knowledge based upon research to date.

Thank you in advance for this additional information.

Sincerely,
Tom Trischler
1973 Porsche 914-2.0 owner
Orange, Calif., USA
///////


-----Original Message-----
From: "Wolters R."
Sent: Jun 17, 2009 5:34 PM
To: catrischler@earthlink.net
Subject: RE: Algemeen contact formulier



Hello Mr Trischler,

Although we presently supply the Sprint Classic in several dimensions that are suitable for fitment on a VW-Porsche to my knowledge we have never supplied these tires as OE fitment. When it comes to getting vehicles in concours condition where by it is necessarry to have OE tires fitted to the vehicle, we are sorry to have to disappoint you. Having said that, we doubt that very many of the OE type tires are still on the market today.
As you mention we do have the Sprint Classsic and Sprint + available in several of the dimensions that you mention, and they are an excellent alternative for OE tires as they assentially are a modern tire in a period look, built on modern machines with very small tolerances.
Thank you very much for your interest in our tires
Sincerely

René Wolters

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Ligtenberg M. Namens Info Vredestein
Verzonden: maandag 15 juni 2009 2:45
Aan: Customer US
Onderwerp: FW: Algemeen contact formulier



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: catrischler@earthlink.net [mailto:catrischler@earthlink.net]
Verzonden: zondag 14 juni 2009 0:07
Aan: Info Vredestein
Onderwerp: Algemeen contact formulier


Algemeen contact formulier
Naam/Name: Mr. Tom Trischler
Email/E-mail address: catrischler@earthlink.net
Adres/Address: 703 N. Shaffer St.
Postcode/Postal code: 92867
Plaats/City: Orange, CA
Land/Country: USA
Telefoon/Telephone: 714-469-6769
Fax/Fax: 714-633-5050
Opmerkingen/Remarks: Dear Sirs/Ladies: I understand that Vredestein has been in the tire business since 1946, but am not sure whether or not they supplied automobile tires during the 1970s, if so - whether supplied here in the USA or only to Europe/non-USA, and whether their period offerings included tires appropriate to the various Porsche/VW-Porsche 914 models produced & sold between 1969-1977. Can you please verify if Vredestein supplied either OE &/or Aftermarket Tires during the 1970's (OE - 1969-1977) for the Porsche (USA) &/or Porsche/VW (Europe & World) model 914 cars? If so, can uyou please provide documentation on such, and on which sizes & types were available during that period, such as: 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 175/70VR15, etc.; whether they were tube &/or tubeless, radial &/or other designs; as well as where (e.g.: Europe, USA, etc.) & during which years such were available (if any). We are trying to establish that Vredestein's current "Sprint+" &/or "Classic Sprint" tires are acceptable current offerings of an acceptable OE &/or period manufacturer of tires for these cars, for the various Porsche concours shows. Documentation on official Vredestein company letterhead &/or period advertisements, brochures & spec. sheets would be most helpful to 914 owners in this regard - if you can supply such documents with a cover letter. Thank You. Sincerely, Tom Trischler owner: 1973 Porsche 914-2.0 (USA/Calif.)


VREDESTEIN TYRES
13 BRIDGE STREET
METUCHEN N.J. 08840
U.S.A.

T: 732 549 2440
F: 732 549 2450
WoltersR@vredestein.com
http://www.vredestein.com/

The information contained in this message may be confidential and is intended to be exclusively for the addressee. Should you receive this message unintentionally, please do not use the contents herein and notify the sender immediately by return e-mail.
<end snip>

After resending my clarification request again this morning, I just received the following clarification for Mr. Wolters at Vredestein Tyres, which indicates that they did produce such tires during the 1970s. for sure in the SR flavor, maybe in HR, but probably not in VR (if I'm interpolating his comments correctly). Hopefully this is of some use to others out there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

If I can figure out a way to transfer his emails with the Vredestein letterhead/logo into a picture file, then I'll post it here later for others' direct print-out & use.

<snipped>
From: "Wolters R." <WoltersR@vredestein.com> [Add to Address Book]
To: Thomas Trischler <catrischler@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: 2nd Request for Clarification on 1970's Tyre Production (RE: Algemeen contact formulier)
Date: Jun 22, 2009 1:25 PM
Attachments: unknown-1 KB


Dear Mr Trischler

During the 70's we had those tire sizes you mention in our program, however to my knowledge these were S rated tires, certainly not V rated. We sold our tires mainly in Europe, however it could be that some of our products found their way to different markets, such as The US or South America. If this was the case thes tires were either sold by our export department (which handles all markets where we do not own subsidiaries), or through third parties.
Either way it is too far in the past to be able to give you exact data.
Sincerely Yours,

Mr René Wolters
<end snip>

I hereby rest my case! Unless you have a euro 914, Vredesteins are not proper. Shame on any PCA concours judge that rules it so for a US car, but having been one your judging minutes are so stressful that it would be easy to overlook. But, that's also why PCA allows protests.

If your REALLY have to be REALLY perfect (remember, you're only looking at 3 points) go with the XZX's. In ten years you'll be pleading to the gods to have them wear out! They're rubbish. Oh, and I should say that they are nearly 40 year old rubbish.

Sorry to the Uber CW's, but I'll go with safety & performance. Yeah, burn me at the stake!

[Tom_T]

Okay folks - I'm looking at the following "official" 914 Marketing brochures at Jeff Bownslby's webpage link below:

http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Brochures.htm


It would appear from this, that in the USA at least, there was perhaps a CHOICE of tube or tubeless tires on 914s between 1970-1972 MY, per these:

1970 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_70USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_70USA2-06.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_70USA3-18.jpg

1971 MY Spec. Sheets:
> These are very hard to read the Specs on this MY. If anyone has a more legible 1971 MY Spec sheet, please post it or a link thereto here!
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_71USA1-14.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_71USA2-06.jpg

1972 MY Spec. Sheets:
- Pat, these appear to Spec tubeless for 1972 MY? ...could yours have been tubeless due to the chrome wheels which you got?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_72USA1-02.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_72USA2-12.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...Bro_72C1-04.jpg

1973 MY Spec. Sheets:
as I had previously posted those links/pages above
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_73USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_73USA2-12.jpg

1974 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_74USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_74USA2-21.JPG
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_74USA2-22.JPG

1975 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_75USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_75USA2-21.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_75USA2-22.jpg

1976 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_76USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_76USA2-20.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_76USA2-21.jpg


Based upon the above specs for USA 914s, it would appear that the "stock" or "base level" tire & wheel fitment for the 1970-76 914s were as follows:

1970:
1.7L --- 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
914/6 - 5.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tires with Tubes
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.7 & 6

1971: - this one is hardly legible, but appears to be the same as the prior 1970 MY's Specs??
1.7L --- 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
914/6 - 5.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tires with Tubes
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.7 & 6

1972:
1.7L - 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost

1973:
1.7L - 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Fuchs 2L Style) Forged Light Alloy Wheels*
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on the 1.7 & standard on the 2.0
* Note that 1973 MY was the only one where the Fuchs 2L Alloys, as a part of the Appearance Group & Performance Group Option Sets, all of which were included in that MY's 2L base price as "standard" or "included" options - per the following brochure page links. Starting in the 1974 to 1976 MYs, these were part or all made "options at additional cost," as noted in each year's brochure specs. &/or text.
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_73USA1-03.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibl...o_73USA2-11.jpg

1974:
1.8L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.8 & 2.0

1975:
1.8L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.8 & 2.0

1976:
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on the 2.0


NOTE: For those who had a different fitment from the above & at these Porsche+Audi sales brochures' info., of the standard/base level wheels &/or tires on your 914s when new, was either the result of: a particular option of wheels &/or tires fitted to the car, Factory substitutions based upon tire availability at the time of production of your particular car, &/or due to the dealer shenanigans in swapping &/or outright stealing of the proper wheels/tires for the car, etc.

As I understand how PCA et al look at the "proper wheel & tire fitment" for a particular car, it should conform to either the above standard/base level fitments - unless the Munroney Window Sticker, Dealer Bill of Sale, COA &/or other documentation can prove otherwise, in which case that is the proper wheel/tire fitment under the CW rules.
-- Please correct me if I'm wrong Pat & other CWs!


Again - the sales brochures & marketing documents at this web link below are EXCELLENT resources for the OE fitment & period/MY options & accessories available for the 1970-76 914s!!!! Look at them if you haven't already! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)


Disbelieve if you wish - but look at these & other "official" documentation before you challenge these authentic PORSCHE+AUDI documents - & NO MORE "shooting of the messenger" PLEEZ!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) So now the rest of you 1970-72 & 1974-76 MY 914 owners can do the more detailed research, since I've given you a start here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

What am I missing here?

Either I'm, blind (which is pretty close to the truth), or there's no mention of optional (app group) wheels for the 72's, i.e. 5 1/2 inchers. That mandates a larger tire, such as a 165. I know it means little, but it shows that taking print as literal is not always correct. Or, did I miss it?
Pat

Hi Pat - those above would only list the so called "stock spec" wheel & tire items for the cars, and in some cases - a few of the available options.

Options are usually discussed in the text pages of the various sales brochures (although to a limited extent), for which I didn't list all brochure pages per year above, cuz I was focusing on the wheels & tires for this discussion - rather than "everything".

However, you can go the the link below & scroll down to 1972 USA brochures & link each page at the numbers in the right columns to read them:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Brochures.htm

For the options, you'll want to look at these web-pages on Jeff Bowlsby's excellent 914 SIG website - and start with M485 there:
Index of 914 Info. pages: http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/
Options: http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/OpEq.htm

Happy Reading! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

[quote name='Pat Garvey' date='Jun 22 2009, 06:49 PM' post='1184235']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1184108' date='Jun 22 2009, 12:37 PM']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1184043' date='Jun 22 2009, 10:25 AM']
[/quote]
I hereby rest my case! Unless you have a euro 914, Vredesteins are not proper. Shame on any PCA concours judge that rules it so for a US car, but having been one your judging minutes are so stressful that it would be easy to overlook. But, that's also why PCA allows protests.

If your REALLY have to be REALLY perfect (remember, you're only looking at 3 points) go with the XZX's. In ten years you'll be pleading to the gods to have them wear out! They're rubbish. Oh, and I should say that they are nearly 40 year old rubbish.

Sorry to the Uber CW's, but I'll go with safety & performance. Yeah, burn me at the stake!
[/quote]

It still sounds to me for us 914-2L 4s - like you're going to lose 3 pts. - if any, as Pat & others say regarding level of judging & time allowed - ANY WAY YOU GO! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

165HR15 Tubless Radial Vredesteins - DING! for not being a USA/OE supplier

165SR15 Michelin XZX Tubeless - DING! for not HR rated

165HR15 Michelin XAS Tube-type - DING! for not Tubeless

185/70VR15 Michelin XWX Tubeless - DING! for being an Optional Upgrade size

185/70VR15 Pirelli CN36 Tube-type - DOUBLE DING! for not Tubeless & not OE

195/65HR-VR15 Anything - DINGUS OFF! for everything - except for that official Porsche letter in German!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
...but they'll probably handle best of all - if not too heavy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

That's it - they're all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) over at PCA Rules Committees & Judging!

I'm tellin ya! ...it's a "tail-dragger" conspiracy to keep us 914s outta the runnin!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[tod914]

I recently spoke to one of the owners at Eurotire ( 973 575-0080 ) in Fairfield NJ. Bill mentioned that they have been a Vredestein dealer since the 70s, and still carry their tires to this day. He mentioned a road and track tire test from 1976 as well. I'm sure he wouldn't mind answering more specific questions if either of you guys called him.

[Pat Garvey]

[quote name='Tom_T' date='Jun 22 2009, 09:52 PM' post='1184301']
[quote name='Pat Garvey' date='Jun 22 2009, 06:49 PM' post='1184235']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1184108' date='Jun 22 2009, 12:37 PM']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1184043' date='Jun 22 2009, 10:25 AM']
[/quote]
I hereby rest my case! Unless you have a euro 914, Vredesteins are not proper. Shame on any PCA concours judge that rules it so for a US car, but having been one your judging minutes are so stressful that it would be easy to overlook. But, that's also why PCA allows protests.

If your REALLY have to be REALLY perfect (remember, you're only looking at 3 points) go with the XZX's. In ten years you'll be pleading to the gods to have them wear out! They're rubbish. Oh, and I should say that they are nearly 40 year old rubbish.

Sorry to the Uber CW's, but I'll go with safety & performance. Yeah, burn me at the stake!
[/quote]

It still sounds to me for us 914-2L 4s - like you're going to lose 3 pts. - if any, as Pat & others say regarding level of judging & time allowed - ANY WAY YOU GO! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

165HR15 Tubless Radial Vredesteins - DING! for not being a USA/OE supplier

165SR15 Michelin XZX Tubeless - DING! for not HR rated

165HR15 Michelin XAS Tube-type - DING! for not Tubeless

185/70VR15 Michelin XWX Tubeless - DING! for being an Optional Upgrade size

185/70VR15 Pirelli CN36 Tube-type - DOUBLE DING! for not Tubeless & not OE

195/65HR-VR15 Anything - DINGUS OFF! for everything - except for that official Porsche letter in German!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
...but they'll probably handle best of all - if not too heavy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

That's it - they're all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) over at PCA Rules Committees & Judging!

I'm tellin ya! ...it's a "tail-dragger" conspiracy to keep us 914s outta the runnin!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)
[/quote]

Tom,
What are you? A purist?
BTW good research!

I don't think it's a taildragger conspiracy. I think it's a few people who are trying to maintain 100% purity when it comes to tires. I honestly think that they think they are doing the right thing. Who knows, if I were a member of the Committee, I may lean towards those ends. But, I'm not.

Fact is, most of the tires you mentioned are unobtainable. If I could get a fresh set of Cn36's I'd.....well I'd go elsewhere.

I want contemporary materials, production methods and performance. No, I don't want to :pooch: my fenders with a baseball bat to make them fit. Nor do I want GT flares.

All I want is a contemporary tire that fits my wheels & fenders, without modification.

What I (personally) want id a tire that is the equivalent of the Yoko A008R's of 15 years ago. That way, I can autocross when I want to, rally when I want to, concours when I want to (yeah, I can afford the poits), and be safe. Oh, I also DON'T want them to cost 200 bucks apiece.
So....any guesses where I'm leaning?
Pat

[tod914]

As the tire turns... Pat's car remains on jackstands. I'm going for the Vanders on Monday. Very difficult choice, but they are reasonably priced. Painted my new boge oil shocks grey so what do you expect. Pat I see your point with the tires. Better drivability, saftey, etc. The difference in size can be negligable. Think you and your wife can make it out to the VW fest this year in Flanders?

[Tom_T]

Pat & All,

All of those on the above & prior lists are currently available - if some by special order, via Lucas Automotive/Tires at the 1st link below, & they're located in Long Beach CA & Springfield, OH (just down the street from Bart Simpson (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ).

They can get anything which Longstone Tyres (UK) carries at the 2nd link below, because Lucas is Longstone's USA rep., but only the DOT approved ones are street legal (Robert below can tell you which are/aren't).

http://www.lucasclassictires.com/
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/radial.php

Email to Robert Montgomery at Lucas for questions, prices, etc.:
sales@lucasclassictires.com

He also told me that Pirelli is supposedly bringing back the CN36 in 165HR15 & has moved the tooling/molds to Ireland for production, but he doesn't know when. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

EDITED 3-24-12

[Tom_T]

EDITED - DELETE

[Tom_T]

EDITED - DELETE

[Tom_T]

Okay CW experts on 1973 2Ls out there - I need HELP!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

I've been looking at a bunch of Fuchs 2L Alloys FS - mostly in sets of 4 & a few with 5, but from years mfgd all over the place, & have questions before I spend a bunch of coin on the wrong ones. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

So how important is it that they all have the same mfg date stamped on the back for all 5 as in OE sets, &/or that they be from either the same 9/72 build date of my 914 or at least in the same 1973 MY???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

But before you jump in to answer - consider the following:

My VIN 4732901954 was subject to the Fuchs 2L Alloy Wheel Replacement Program under the BO Recall for ALL 73 MY 2L cars produced up thru Dec. 1972, so that essentially NONE would have had matching wheel/car mfgr dates, since they were swapped out for later ones!

You can read the VW America/Porsche letters to the dealers with full instructions at the web link below, & the BO & BH Recalls are at the bottom of the page linked below, & the links in the right column thereon go to scanned pages of the dealer letters.

http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Recalls.htm

BO applies to the Fuchs 2L Alloys on 2.0's like mine (VIN...1954), BH to the M485 option's alloys - Pedrini & 4-lig Mahles I think (& for far less # of cars).

Both recalls were because the alloy wheels of all types subject to BO/BH were manufactured incorrectly & lacking the inset ring around the center hole into which fit the "new" self-centering hubs on the front as introduced in the 73 MY. They instruct dealers to pull off the wrong alloys & send them back for a new set to be sent at a future date TBD, & put steel wheels on temporarily. Ergo, returned wheels may also have been returned & re-machined with the inset, & then used on later build date 914s & not match some later 73MY cars as well!?

So - can I look for wheels that fall within a range of dates on the Fuchs Alloys (real ones of course), which would match the time period that the dealers might have taken to get "correct" wheels back from PAG/VWA???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

...& if so, what is that date range to be acceptable to the CWs & judges at PCA, etc.?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

BTW - mine either got 4 Rivieras & a steel spare instead, or the PO changed the Fuchs for those before I got the 914 in 12/75, so I'm trying to get it back to proper OE fitment.

TIA !!!!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[tod914]

John Takehara, the National Concours chairman, was kind enough to respond to our tire question.

Dear Tod:

Vu forwarded your e-mail to me regarding the 914 tire size. First, let me say that I am a very active “lurker” on the 914world website and think that it is one of the best sites, second let me tell you that I have a 914 track car.



To answer your question:



In the Restoration Group and the Preservation Group, the Vredestein 165 HR 15 would be fine without loosing any points. Since that tire size is very difficult to find, I would say that the modern size of 195 65 H 15 would be suitable also.





I hope this helps,



John Takehara

National Concours Chairman

[Tom_T]

EDITED - DELETE

[tod914]

Tom I ended up with the Conti procontacts 195 65 H 15s. What I noticed was, the Vre.'s. were narrower than my original spare, which is also a Conti. I did notice a difference in pick from the 195 60's to the 195 65. Well at the spedo is correct now.
Couple of my buddies with British sports cars have the Vre's. They said they love them. And after seeing them on their cars, that would be my choice over the Contis. Hindsight is always 20-20. I didn't like they way they looked when I seen them in the rack, but being mounted, does them justice. Priceing is so close, can't go wrong if you elect to get them.