Alex - I'll take 914 6 ring gear damage for $1000, "what do High Torque starters do" Options

[don9146]

I replaced a flywheel on a customer's car for the same problem, with (against my recommendation) you guessed it, another high torque starter. I told the guy when we got done, that I wouldn't do the job again. If I had an open schedule and nothing better to do, maybe. I will not put one of those on a car again.

For clarification, I did not use another on of the "Hi-torque" starters like the one sold on Pelican's site (and in BKLA's post). We used the starter that is commonly seen for sale on eBay. You will know it when you have one because the electrical leads are on the bottom of the starter when mounted, which make little to no sense to me to build a starter that way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) . I already bought the starter before I knew I had an issue with the flywheel caused by the previous starter. If I had to do it over again, I would go with a Bosch starter and am keeping my eye open for a good used one (subtle hint for anyone that may have on for sale (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ).

Later,
Don

[HIPERFORMANCEUSA]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

That looks a little bit different than the one I bought on ebay for $119.

Hi,
I'm the person who distributes my own version of the mini starter. Its not an IMI version that the above picture shows that chewed up the flywheel. The pitch of the gear is same as OEM. The issues that some people run into is that the transmission plate is so old that it could be thinner causing the gear to stick out further inside the bellhousing. Either way, the Powerforce version versus the IMI version is quite different and the only time you've seen mine's picture on these forums was to show others how well it fits. Buy with confidence. I only sell on EBAY.

Thanks,

Sam

[HIPERFORMANCEUSA]

Dr Ev- ... if you want to start a collection of junk hi-torque starters, I'll send you mine also ... it cost me hundreds to repair the damage done by that stupid $ 119 'deal' and, despite my warnings to others who say they are considering buying it, they keep buying them !!!

[Dr Evil]

We need to settle this once and for all but getting a stock one, and the IMI one and powering the solinoid to see how far each projects. Then we will also have a measure for he space needed to use and can inform the vendor so he can start telling people.

Dr. Ev -

I'll send you the hi torque starter if you really want to pursue it. F R E E
It is about two years old and has had very little use. let me know where and when.

I would take one just to test. I would even remove my starter to compare if anyone wants to foot the shipping. (kinda tight on funds, see other post (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) ).

I just think that this is awkward and want some definitive numbers to point to a reason. I would bet that I know I can get a stock bosch form my friends parts stash, I took a pic of it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

One thing I am noticing on your starters is that there is no blue insulated wire guide such as is on mine.

[Dr Evil]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

That looks a little bit different than the one I bought on ebay for $119.

Hi,
I'm the person who distributes my own version of the mini starter. Its not an IMI version that the above picture shows that chewed up the flywheel. The pitch of the gear is same as OEM. The issues that some people run into is that the transmission plate is so old that it could be thinner causing the gear to stick out further inside the bellhousing. Either way, the Powerforce version versus the IMI version is quite different and the only time you've seen mine's picture on these forums was to show others how well it fits. Buy with confidence. I only sell on EBAY.

Thanks,

Sam

Sam, thanks for stopping buy. I hope maybe you can help us explore this further. However, the concept that the non standard starters may not be working because of of a thin plate causing it to stick out further is just kinda, well, not logical when you consider that a stock unit performs just fine.

It is weird that this is only happening to /6 conversions, though. I have such a conversion and mine kicks ass when I start it and is showing no wear on the ring gear as inspected through the bottom hole. Hopefully the future will yield more answers.

[Dr Evil]

Digging further, I can tell buy the picks in Sam's add that I have one of his:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PORSCHE-911...sspagenameZWDVW

Notice the blue rubber wire guide and the fact that the motor is not as gigantic as the other one pictured by BKLA. It appears that we have two different aftermarket starters

[IronHillRestorations]

I forgot about you taking those pics Don, worth 1000 werds.

I couldn't remember where, who, or when you got the first starter. I also remembered after my last post, that we heard a bit of a zing the first time you started the car after replacing the starter and flywheel.

Let's hope there's more than 5k miles in the new flywheel and starter!

[McMark]

Perry,

I agree with your logic. My concern is the quality of a rebuilt versus brand new (in terms of longevity). I definitely don't disagree with you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The issues that some people run into is that the transmission plate is so old that it could be thinner causing the gear to stick out further inside the bellhousing.

Sam, I'm happy to see you pop in. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. Unfortunately, I have to completely disagree with your assessment, at least on four cylinder cars. The ring gear does not change position over the life of the flywheel. A flywheel that has been cut to the minimum allowable thickness will have exactly the same ring gear dimensions as a brand new flywheel.

[EDIT] What do you mean by 'transmission plate'?

What would really help us, Sam, is if you have specific manufacturing dimensions that you could post. Specifically, drive gear extension/throw and the distance between the mounting surface and the end of the gear. That would help a lot. Also, some detailed pictures of your product to help those of us who have mini-starters identify which model we have. There is no sense in us sharing our experience if we can't compare apples to apples. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Thanks Sam.

[HIPERFORMANCEUSA]

Perry,

I agree with your logic. My concern is the quality of a rebuilt versus brand new (in terms of longevity). I definitely don't disagree with you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The issues that some people run into is that the transmission plate is so old that it could be thinner causing the gear to stick out further inside the bellhousing.

Sam, I'm happy to see you pop in. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. Unfortunately, I have to completely disagree with your assessment, at least on four cylinder cars. The ring gear does not change position over the life of the flywheel. A flywheel that has been cut to the minimum allowable thickness will have exactly the same ring gear dimensions as a brand new flywheel.

[EDIT] What do you mean by 'transmission plate'?

What would really help us, Sam, is if you have specific manufacturing dimensions that you could post. Specifically, drive gear extension/throw and the distance between the mounting surface and the end of the gear. That would help a lot. Also, some detailed pictures of your product to help those of us who have mini-starters identify which model we have. There is no sense in us sharing our experience if we can't compare apples to apples. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Thanks Sam.

Heres the motor style I sell which is somewhat similar to the IMI style. IMI Rotates its DE housing where as mine is Static to the original equipment position. I'll get some dimensions for you next week on static pinion position, pitch throwout and mounting. I'm more than happy to help on this issue.

[SirAndy]

i got mine years ago, from performance products, i believe. i remember the box said "hi-torque" all over it.

fits perfectly, no spacers needed. on the /4 and now on the /6.
cranks like crazy every time. even on the higher compression /4 i had.

i wouldn't go back to a bosch starter even if you paid me to do so ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif) Andy

[BKLA]

We need to settle this once and for all but getting a stock one, and the IMI one and powering the solinoid to see how far each projects. Then we will also have a measure for he space needed to use and can inform the vendor so he can start telling people.

Dr. Ev -

I'll send you the hi torque starter if you really want to pursue it. F R E E
It is about two years old and has had very little use. let me know where and when.

I would take one just to test. I would even remove my starter to compare if anyone wants to foot the shipping. (kinda tight on funds, see other post (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) ).

I just think that this is awkward and want some definitive numbers to point to a reason. I would bet that I know I can get a stock bosch form my friends parts stash, I took a pic of it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

One thing I am noticing on your starters is that there is no blue insulated wire guide such as is on mine.

Dr. Ev -

I'll send it to you as I have no use for it. It'll go out later this week. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I would be interested in understanding the spacing issue on the starters. I read tilton's installation instructions on the web. THey reference a very clear min. distance from the end of the starter gear to the ring gear as well as a way to measure it. I thought about McMarks spacing idea with washers, but it seems that the starter would work its way loose as it would want to pivot around the small surface area of the washers, over a period of time. Maybe not for those who tinker every weekend and would check it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Seems like a simple laser cut spacer would do the trick.

I am really happy with the new flywheel and bosch starter. It is quieter and starts much quicker than before. Took off the GT/rally muffler and reinstalled the 911 sport muffler - drove it around a lot this weekend - quieter and can hear that wonderful weber music clearer- LOVE this car!

[type47fan]

It's been thirty days and I'd hate to see this topic die before it's resolved, so, is there anything new that hasn't been posted? Have the starters been evaluated and measurements taken? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Thanks,

[Dr. Roger]

i kinda' skimmed through this thread but didn't see this question asked:

have you checked the wear pattern on your flywheel and starter gears?

there, you will find your answer to the question, "how far in is the starter engaging"?

i can help if you can supply a close-up pic of the ring gear showing the contact surfaces.

best of luck.

roger

[larryM]

Has this IMI problem ever been solved?

I recently bought one of the IMI units from Pelican to use on a 3.2 with 901 & KEP ring conversion parts -

it did not come with any spacer

still new in box - should i return it ??????????????

KEP said yesterday on phone they recommend the IMI

. ????????????????


I CAN tell y'all that the Bosch hi-torque 911 unit (1.5 hp) (looks identical to my oem '89 3.2 starter) as sold by Stoddard and many others as a "solution" turns out to be a big eater of ring gears & thusly $450 flywheels (twice in 5000 miles on my 2.7)

- KEP says that the Bosch has a thin nose bushing and that it cracks on kickbacks - then the pnion gets out of tolerance and chews
.

[bcheney]

I just had a hi torque starter purchased from Automotion out of Titusville FL. It was about $300. Is this one good to go without any concern for ring gear damage? My car is a 6 conversion with a OEM 914/6 flywheel and a 2.2 Engine.

[Eric_Shea]

They resolved this years ago and send a spacer for the 901 application.

[jsayre914]

i got mine years ago, from performance products, i believe. i remember the box said "hi-torque" all over it.

fits perfectly, no spacers needed. on the /4 and now on the /6.
cranks like crazy every time. even on the higher compression /4 i had.

i wouldn't go back to a bosch starter even if you paid me to do so ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif) Andy

I agree, swapped in a High Torque, no spacers, and it starts way quicker and smoother. Every time. All wires reached and the install was 30 min.

I would never go back to a Bosch. Too many times it would crank too slow to start the car. My engine is also 2056 with higher compression

[SLITS]

Sam uses the Hitachi starter it appears.

The IMI is also the Hitachi.

BCheney's stater is the Nippondenso.

I've run them both. I also had a stock Bosch 911 (SR68?) starter that chewed up my flywheel.

Go figure!

If I were to purchase another, I would purchase from ProLine, Parker, AZ ( I know the guy. He purchases cores from us and I know the quality of his work).

[HIPERFORMANCEUSA]

Sam uses the Hitachi starter it appears.

The IMI is also the Hitachi.

BCheney's stater is the Nippondenso.

I've run them both. I also had a stock Bosch 911 (SR68?) starter that chewed up my flywheel.

Go figure!

If I were to purchase another, I would purchase from ProLine, Parker, AZ ( I know the guy. He purchases cores from us and I know the quality of his work).

Hi,
We actually use the OEM nippondenso cores for our units. The other photo listed is a hitachi version.

Sam

[HIPERFORMANCEUSA]

I just had a hi torque starter purchased from Automotion out of Titusville FL. It was about $300. Is this one good to go without any concern for ring gear damage? My car is a 6 conversion with a OEM 914/6 flywheel and a 2.2 Engine.

This starter is a Hitachi motor, not a Nippondenso motor. These have no history in the markety place like the IMI's and Hi Performance units.

Sam