My engine temps are high...real high, Paging Jake Raby Options

[purple]

Hey Yall,

I just installed my Cylinder Head temp sensor under the plug on #3, didnt cut the wires and installed everything as per VDO specs.

I also hooked up my oil temp gauge and to my delight, the sensor actually works.

Now, the bad news...

My engine runs hot....REAL hot.

According to Jake, this thing should be severely damaged by now. At idle it'll get up to 350 on head temps pretty quick and stay there.

After driving a little it'll get to 400 and stay there, going down to 350 when sitting at a light. If i start cruising at 45mph or so, it'll get to 400 and a little beyond, i think i've seen as high as 450 on there. Just cruising in 4th gear going 45 will do this. The thing is, the engine sounds fine. I was expecting to hear wierd noises or see smoke, but it just keeps thrumming along. What's going on here?

About the engine:
hydraulic lifters.
no lower air diverter (plastic flap thingy) on passenger side
no lower engine tin on driver's side
pretty much shot seals around the engine tin
no warm air guides
stock 76 exhaust manifold to cobbled shitty motorcycle dual exhaust, 1 per cyl bank
weber progressive carb
what looks like a 009 on there (mallory and promaster are on the way)

What can I do to lower these temps? is my engine toast? (it seems to drive just fine, if a little slow)

It had run-on and was pinging on the last tank of gas (regular) but now i'm running premium and those things seem to have stopped

Help me guys, jake, what can i do? timing? too lean? what?

[toon1]

Carbs. or F.I.?

Is it the right gauge and sensor?

right off the bat, check the timing

how many miles on the motor?

is it leaking oil?

is the engine caked with oil?

Do a plug check to see if it's rich or lean.

Try to fix any of the probs you mentioned ALL things related to the cooling tins ETC. are CRITICAL.

Log onto the aircooled forums and listin to Jakes radio shows on cooling, they are invaluble.

This will get you started , Keith

[Rand]

Absolutely check your timing. If you aren't positive it's on, then you need to do that anyway. And advanced timing can certainly push head temps up. And if it's pinging, advanced timing is a suspect.

You already know everyone is going to tell you to fix your tin and seals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And you'll be hearing about that exhaust setup... They should be crossed over / connected from one side to the other.

[purple]

@toon1
the gauge and sensor are brand new from jegs, the exact sensor and gauge combo i've seen on this forum at least eleventy thousand times.

timing, i have no idea, dont have a timing lamp

unknown miles on motor, odometer stopped at 49k~ and i have since fixed it and rolled it to 0, now it's got 150 on it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

it's not leaking oil, because the crankcase vents arent connected to anything

the engine is surprisingly oil-cakeless

i dunno what rich or lean plugs look like: i assume rich is wet looking, lean is white? mine are dry and blackish

in order to replace the tin...substanctial engine dis-assembly is required, as the front and rear tins are missing on drivers side, and the baffle plate, which reqires removing the pushrod tubes, AFAIK

and dropping the engine is probably going to have to happen too, huh?

I know i have to fix the tin and seals, i have to drop the engine to do this dont i?

I'm scared of opening up the engine, because every project i've done on this car ends up leading to another more difficult one. like i'm really looking forward to the 'pulled exhaust studs' issue since i've got later exhaust

i'll set the timing when i put the mallory on there (wiring i'm excellent at, it's mechanical stuff like timing that is new to me) any tips? which timing lamp should i use? can i do it right the first time? should i take it somewhere?

[Jake Raby]

Oh my god.... You have several things causing this, together they are a death sentence for the engine. It doesn't get much worse ...

My only question is WHERE did you install the CHT sensor?

After driving a little it'll get to 400 and stay there, going down to 350 when sitting at a light. If i start cruising at 45mph or so, it'll get to 400 and a little beyond, i think i've seen as high as 450 on there. Just cruising in 4th gear going 45 will do this. The thing is, the engine sounds fine. I was expecting to hear wierd noises or see smoke, but it just keeps thrumming along. What's going on here?

Whats going on? A totally fucked up configuration is whats going on! More than likely the engine will sound fine, right up to the point where it goes boom. My ears would more than lilley hear different things than yours.

About the engine:
hydraulic lifters.

Strike one.

no lower air diverter (plastic flap thingy) on passenger side

I am lost as to the part you refer to here.

no lower engine tin on driver's side

Strike two- ALL stock tin MUST BE IN PLACE!

pretty much shot seals around the engine tin

Strike 3... You are sucking in hot air off the highway and the hot underside of the engine and expecting that to cool the engine. Hotter air doesn't cool- it also kills the temperature of the air going into the engine's intake charge, making less efficiency which CREATES HEAT.

no warm air guides

What parts?? Not familiar with this term.

stock 76 exhaust manifold to cobbled shitty motorcycle dual exhaust, 1 per cyl bank

Strike 4 and the biggest yet! EXHAUST IS EVERYTHING!!!!!!! WHY the hell do people continue to do the dual exhaust bullshit with these engines? With a dual exhaust you have ZERO scavenging of the exhaust gases, thus killing efficiency and creating reversion between paired cylinders. Take that exhaust off and throw it away and do it now.

weber progressive carb

Strike 5. Take it off and throw it away too. Total piece of shit IMHO.

what looks like a 009 on there (mallory and promaster are on the way)

Wise move on the Mallory, but it does not perform miracles and coupled to that exhaust, those lifters and that carburetor you are still going to have challenges.

What can I do to lower these temps? is my engine toast? (it seems to drive just fine, if a little slow)

The first thing is tossing that header, verifying that it isn't lean and verifying that the timing isn't above 30* BDTC full advance. do a val;ve adjustment, as everything associated with those 400F+ heads has moved around- guaranteed.

It had run-on and was pinging on the last tank of gas (regular) but now i'm running premium and those things seem to have stopped

The problem is still there, the higher octane just threw a mask over it.

Help me guys, jake, what can i do? timing? too lean? what?

Toss the progressive, buy dual 40mm Webers.
Install the Mallory
Get a real header

Damage has been done, detonation that is loud enough to be audible damages combustion chambers, rod brearings and weakens pistons. The higher exhaust gas temps created by the shitty exhaust has soaked into the exhaust valves and weakened them as well, more than likely.

This engine is cursed with every bad thing you can throw at it. Go play the lotery right now because you are one lucky guy to not have scattered parts all over the ground already. Hitting 450F is serious business.

Who the hell installed all that crap? Hope it wasn't you. He needs his ass beat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif)


(can I be more blunt?)

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Sep 13 2007, 05:27 PM

[ConeDodger]

@toon1
the gauge and sensor are brand new from jegs, the exact sensor and gauge combo i've seen on this forum at least eleventy thousand times.

timing, i have no idea, dont have a timing lamp

unknown miles on motor, odometer stopped at 49k~ and i have since fixed it and rolled it to 0, now it's got 150 on it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

it's not leaking oil, because the crankcase vents arent connected to anything

the engine is surprisingly oil-cakeless

i dunno what rich or lean plugs look like: i assume rich is wet looking, lean is white? mine are dry and blackish

in order to replace the tin...substanctial engine dis-assembly is required, as the front and rear tins are missing on drivers side, and the baffle plate, which reqires removing the pushrod tubes, AFAIK

and dropping the engine is probably going to have to happen too, huh?

I know i have to fix the tin and seals, i have to drop the engine to do this dont i?

I'm scared of opening up the engine, because every project i've done on this car ends up leading to another more difficult one. like i'm really looking forward to the 'pulled exhaust studs' issue since i've got later exhaust

i'll set the timing when i put the mallory on there (wiring i'm excellent at, it's mechanical stuff like timing that is new to me) any tips? which timing lamp should i use? can i do it right the first time? should i take it somewhere?

Is it a compensated guage? Reads the ambient when the engine is off and cold?

Timing.

[purple]

At least you're honest.

The p.o. did all this to the engine. unfortunately i didnt know what i was looking at when i bought the car. i saw a good solid body with very little rust.

he had a look on his face when he said 'i've done things to this car that porsche guys would not like' I had no idea how deep the rabbithole went...

I fully intend to go to dual webers jake, just funding at this point. I was actually going to run this engine into the ground and put a 2056 kit from YOU together. I'd rather deal with assembling an engine than DIS-assembling this....thing.

the air diverters are those little plastic flaps that hang down in the front part of the engine bay.

the 'warm air guides' are those plates that keep the speedometer cable from getting melted.

now with the detonation...i never can get a clear answer on what exactly a ping sounds like. the engine didnt sound like a diesel, it sounded more like a small rock was rolling around inside it, it was a subtle noise. but whatever a small rock rolling around in there is called, that's what it was doing when it was hot.

when you say 'real header' does that mean a tangerine or a triad? i was kinda hoping to put some stockers on there with a bursch ( have no heater, much less the ducting and all that other shit to necessitate the use of HE's, so headers are fine, i dont need heat)

the guy who did this to the car is a racing shop owner in houston... i wont name names, but it's on richmond...

jake....is this going to be expensive?

[purple]

The CHT is installed, as you instruct, under plug #3

It's the VDO one that doesnt compensate and isnt powered. it's not compensated or one of those nice digital ones.

it reads the head temps regardless whether the engine is on or not, it's actually pretty cool to me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[purple]

and you're right about efficiency, i got 14.7 mpg this last tank...yeah

[Jake Raby]

Damn. My Pinzgauer military truck gets better than that with 34" Super Swampers all around running 70 MPH weighing 6,000 pounds with only 90 aircooled HP!

That exhaust is a HUGE portion of the issue.

[purple]

do i have to take the drivers side heads off to put the baffle plate tin in?

Which exhaust should i put on ?

[sww914]

I'd worry about the timing and the Weber progressive first.
Timing too far advanced and a lean mixture will make it run really hot.
You can probably rent a timing light at a local auto parts store, out here Kragen and Autozone have lots of tools that you can borrow for free- you pay for them, use them, and return them when you're done and you get all of your money back.
I've owned a timing light for many years, since before I ever had a 914, but I think that you could set the timing at idle using the "static" timing method.
I haven't done it for 20 years, but back when I was into type 1 VW's I would do it all the time. On those, you could connect a timing light to a constant hot wire at one end, to the coil ground at the other end, set cylinder #1 at 3-7 degrees before tdc, (whatever it was supposed to be) move the distributor to retarded, and then slowly move it back to advanced until the light came on.
I learned how to do it from the idiot's guide to VW repair. That as probably the best introduction to auto repair ever. I don't have a copy anymore and I'm not 100% sure that that's how it was done or even that it is safe to do with a 914's electrical system, so please don't try it until a couple of other people tell you that it will work and you verify that that is how it's done.
Sorry, it's been too long, I'm getting old quickly now.

[Joe Ricard]

I was gonna help you with what to do but Seems Jake beat me to it.

However I might have a couple of tin pieces if not Rob Watson does cuz I give him a truck load of stuff like that. Some of the holes in the tin can be easily sealed with aluminum ducting tape. (for HVAC).

Ant 914 owner that doesn't have a timing light isn't gonna last long. go get one!
Black plugs = rich mixture.
my 2.0L got 29 MPG and it was fairly hopped up.

[purple]

What steps do you guys think I should take? what's the first thing that needs to get done? should I drop the engine first to put the tin in and replace the seals? This is what I'm thinking so that i'm not installing and removing and installing exhaust and risking pulling the studs.

I have AMC heads, and the engine was rebuilt in 2000 by vw canada (shittily, i guess) Jake...do you think this engine is even worth salvaging at this point? Can it ever be made 'fast' or 'reliable'?

can i replace the hydro lifters and cam with your cam and lifter setup? I'm soo soo lost on all this right now. I need direction

Thanks for your help so verry much

[Rand]

The steps you should take have already been said. Make a list of those and sort them with the easiest/cheapest first.

Adjust the timing. That's a high suspect and it's cheap and easy. You can find tutorials by searching. Check the classics section. If it turns out the timing was way advanced, you may find that it takes the edge off the heat problem enough to at least give you a little bit of relief and satisfaction that you are making improvements.

Find a good deal on a used exhaust system. Anything would be better than what you have.

Get all the tin in place that you can. Joe already gave you a lead on sourcing that. Start with what's easy... Whatever you can install without dropping the engine, get that done.

Seal the gaps... Replacing the engine bay rubber seals correctly might require dropping the motor (double check that). But if you're creative you can block holes with aluminum tape and block gaps with rubber belting or something flexible that can stand heat. (The latter sounds like a bit of a hack, but the point is, do what you can!)

Going that far won't cost you too much and should drop the temps down into a range that won't be causing damage to your engine. Then tackle the harder / more expensive things as you can.

My point is, take heart and do what you can. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Don't let the elephant scare you... Take a bite at a time and get to it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[Jake Raby]

VW of Canada rebuilds aresomewhat funky, but are OK most of the time..

The first thing is ripping off that exhaust, yet again the Type 4 engine is HEAVILY exhaust dependant, without a collector the engine is literally fighting it's self to exhaust the hot gasses. Guess what happens when a 1200 degree exhaust gas temp is restricted??? It soeaks right back up to the heads and ends up as CHT elevations.

Of course, the engine is salvagable- it still runs.

Exhaust
Timing
progressive Weber

Live with the lifters for now, wait till it fails before tearing it down at this point...

[davep]

I don't think a VW Canada engine would have AMC heads, they throw away all aftermarket parts. So if it has AMC heads and hydraulic lifters is it a bus engine then? What size is it supposed to be?

I'd guess that the exhaust will kill the engine first, so it should be first to go. You want to be able to use those heads (at least as cores) for whatever you will build, so take care of them.

[purple]

so the exhaust is the first step.

I think i'll try to get what i can afford right now...i'll try to backdate the system to 73 stock headers and put a bursch on there.

I'll time the mallory when it gets here, i ordered it from jake

i'll work on sealing the tin messups as much as i can and try to find the drivers side tin. the baffle plate will have to wait i guess. I can get those from pelican, right?

This just bums me out. i feel like i was hoodwinked by the p.o. what good is a sports car you can't drive?

[toon1]

so the exhaust is the first step.

I think i'll try to get what i can afford right now...i'll try to backdate the system to 73 stock headers and put a bursch on there.

I'll time the mallory when it gets here, i ordered it from jake

i'll work on sealing the tin messups as much as i can and try to find the drivers side tin. the baffle plate will have to wait i guess. I can get those from pelican, right?

This just bums me out. i feel like i was hoodwinked by the p.o. what good is a sports car you can't drive?

I am going to add my .02 take it for what it's worth( not much).

Pull the engine, will only take a couple hours.

Post pics of the engine after it's out, people here will help with what's wrong and missing.

Fix everything!

It's discouraging now but in the long run you'll be happy you did. Either this or a pile of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) later.

Just my .02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Spoke]

About the engine tin rubber gaskets, I was able to remove/replace both side rubber gaskets and the one around the back of the engine on my red 914 when I painted the engine compartment. It can be done with the engine in, just takes some time.