SEMA alert for CA smog..., fyi Options

[johannes]

This is today the best value for comfort / economy in France.
And beleve me, this car is not small.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/10/09/pe...n-mpg-marathon/

(IMG:http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2007/10/peugeot-308-mpg.jpg)

Figures

Town= 42 mpg
Road= 63 mpg
Mixed=54 mpg

[Nick]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) but it is ugly

This is today the best value for comfort / economy in France.
And beleve me, this car is not small.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/10/09/pe...n-mpg-marathon/

(IMG:http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2007/10/peugeot-308-mpg.jpg)

Figures

Town= 42 mpg
Road= 63 mpg
Mixed=54 mpg

[Jake Raby]

I drove a Peugeot 407 Diesel while on my Honeymoon in Leman in 2006. It was a realy great driving car, but just had too much turbo lag.. It really impressed me!

Ethanol changes lots of things with the engine and higher CR is a possibility and almost a must if you intend to achieve much in the way of MPG. The downfall to ethanol is the loss of MPG and learning how to maximize that with the engine combo is going to be the challenge.

I am not convinced that going to Ethanol is the best option to go in for us here in the states.. Yes, we have a ton of corn crops, but now the Farmers that were producing wheat are producing corn because it is more profitable due to Ethanol demands- thats why the prices of bread ad other products that use a healthy dose of wheat are going up.

There is always going to be a trade off and I am all for taking as much money from the oil barons as possible.

The cost of a kit engine that would get lets say, 40 MPG wouldn't be much more than 4500 bucks... Getting that extra 10 MPG would cost 2K more at minimum due to the processes and extra development to get the results.

As for power:
The 51 MPG engine I built in 2006 still made 134HP and 151 lb/ft of torque, it was no slouch at all and only needed 5K RPM to make all it's power. The combination couples high CR, very mild cam and hi velocity heads with friction resistant coatings and polishing processes to reduce motoring power losses. I have only built two of them and I am working on a third for my Wife's beetle to replace the 2.8L twin plug 249HP engine thats in the car now. Heck that engine still gets 33 MPG!!

Most people feel that underpowering a vehicle produces better MPG- I don't share their thoughts. I believe a bigger engine, built very conservatively, creating a very high amount of torque with a flat torque curve is the key to MPG. When the engine makes more power it takes less effort to push the vehicle down the road and with gear ratio manipulation the results of this theory can be extreme. I'd much rather "idle" down the road as having a "beetle" experience with my foot half way down the carb driving WOT everywhere I go.

A good example of this was my trip cross country in 2006. I averaged 24 MPG with a 180 HP TIV engine travelling at 76 MPH (AVERAGE) across the country (3,450 miles). Several times during that trip I saw averages in the high 80s of large spans of open country, seeing well over 100 MPH for several miles at a time, that driving was also averaged into the 24 MPG figure.

In 1996 I made that same trip in a similar VW Beetle with a stock engine and averaged the same MPG and I damn sure wasn't travelling anywhere near 76 MPH average! That engine made no more than 55 HP, but achieved the same mileage as a dual carbed, 180HP engine travelling much faster over most of the same terrain and interstates...

The biggest difference was in the stock engined beetle I was driving Wide Open Throttle 75% of the time- with the MassIVe engine I seldom used more than 20% throttle...

A great deal of MPG is in the car it's self as well as the driver's ability to use the throttle and gearing wisely. The key to being a good driver, able to attain MPG is throttle manipulation, don't change throttle position unless you have to and be very, very, consistent with gear shifts. Keeping the engine at a stable, optimum temperature is also a big key.

There are certainly bigger variables than the engine that weigh into MPG even more than the engine does...

[ericread]

Jake;

As the price of gas continues to climb, that $4,500 + $2,000 may be sounding real good. I'm expecting to pay nearly that for a mid-year 2009 rebuild kit from you on my 2.0L engine anyway. I'm restoring everything but the engine through the end of 2008 (on a monthly budget). However, in about 12 months, I'm fully expecting to spend that kind of coin, so please keep us updated on your plans.

[Jake Raby]

Cool, but it'll take 19 more guys like you to make it worth the time, especially with all the Boxster development work we are doing now.

[Justinp71]

Well due to the last bill that passed and made new cars not have to be smogged for 6 years, I have seen dozens of new cars at the drag strip that no way would be able to pass smog.

The most popular car is the Chrysler 300c, seen them at the track with a whole different top end of the motor (heads, cam, headers, injectors) and they have plates on them.

They are just working backwards and need to create more of a market for hi-mileage cars... Or maybe that diesel hybrid that VW is creating.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif)

[ericread]

Jake; This is the first I'd heard of your efforts in this area. It sounds great for us folks that are daily drivers. But from your earlier experience, it looks like it'll take 6 or more months of publicity to get the orders lined up (remember the delay in getting the $5,000 engine to take off?)

How much time do you anticipate needing to complete the kit in making it ready for distribution? I understand you probably don't want to take R&D money from your other projects to support this, but how can we get this into a potential timetable?

[horizontally-opposed]

Though this thread started on emissions, I must say where it's going is indeed interesting...because gas prices just keep getting more "interesting." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

I'm currently looking at two window stickers for 2008 911s as I'm working on a story and, in the box about fuel economy the estimated annual fuel cost is "based on 15,000 miles at $2.80 a gallon." Here in SF, it is hard to find 91-octane for less than $4 a gallon, and 87-octane for less than $3.80. And they say it'll get worse this summer! Gas is still cheap in comparison to what it costs in other lands, but it's getting high enough to make me think about how and when and what I drive, as well as whether that trip up the coast is worth it (it still always is, but I never even used to consider the gas $$$!).

Jake's philosophy ties in well with BMW's eta motors of the 1980s. They abandoned that route, something I never fully understood why because the cars were nice to drive so long as you didn't mind a 4500-rpm redline!

pete

[KaptKaos]

Jake's philosophy ties in well with BMW's eta motors of the 1980s. They abandoned that route, something I never fully understood why because the cars were nice to drive so long as you didn't mind a 4500-rpm redline!

First thing I thought of too. A friend had a 325es back in the early 90s. Good car, not particularly exciting to drive. He sold it and bought a 325is. Same body (E30) and man what a huge difference in the personality of the car.

[horizontally-opposed]

Jake's philosophy ties in well with BMW's eta motors of the 1980s. They abandoned that route, something I never fully understood why because the cars were nice to drive so long as you didn't mind a 4500-rpm redline!

First thing I thought of too. A friend had a 325es back in the early 90s. Good car, not particularly exciting to drive. He sold it and bought a 325is. Same body (E30) and man what a huge difference in the personality of the car.

Yep, I like high-revvers for fun, but I have to say that a 528e (or, more accurately, my college girlfriend's 325e) is pretty damn nice around town. Roll the windows down, put the (manual!) sunroof back, and enjoy easy light to light driving. I thought that grunty straight six was pretty satisfying in its own way, but I wouldn't pick it to dance with...

But I'm starting to foresee a day when the character of what we drive on a daily basis will be very different. And a day when "hot" cars used as daily drivers (like the current GTI/335i/997/MazdaSpeed3/Mustang/350Z/etc.) won't be worth their operational cost in an everyday environment.

I hope I'm wrong.

pete

[ericread]

Back to the emission isse for a moment...

Is there any reason why we don't use this forum as a lobbying base for such issues? Within this BBS we have hundreds of persons that will be directly affected so it seems like a good place to create a group response. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Is it possible to use the "survey" function of this BBS to collect electronic signatures that we can distribute to local and national lawmakers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

Or would using this BBS for that purpose cause legal/tax issues that need to be avoided? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[KaptKaos]

www.semasan.com

SEMA's Action Network. A lot of this kind of info runs up there.

[Jake Raby]

Lawmakers don't give a damn... They are just more worthless pond scum that is worried about nothing we care about.... That could give a damn less about a car thats older than a 2007.

Hell a few months ago the freakin President didn't even know how much a fuckin' gallon of gas cost!!!

On the tipoc of the MPG kit engine, lets don't hijack the thread- start one on my forums as thats what they are there for.. if we do it here some freakin whiner will point their finger at me saying that I am using the BBS as an advertising venue, then I'll get pissed and all hell will break loose...

Pete, I see the need for an article on tuning the 914 for MPG in the future :-)

[ericread]

Lawmakers don't give a damn... They are just more worthless pond scum that is worried about nothing we care about.... That could give a damn less about a car thats older than a 2007.

Hell a few months ago the freakin President didn't even know how much a fuckin' gallon of gas cost!!!

On the tipoc of the MPG kit engine, lets don't hijack the thread- start one on my forums as thats what they are there for.. if we do it here some freakin whiner will point their finger at me saying that I am using the BBS as an advertising venue, then I'll get pissed and all hell will break loose...

Pete, I see the need for an article on tuning the 914 for MPG in the future :-)

Seriously Jake, don't hold back. If you have an opinion let us know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

My apologies for the hijack - I just find mileage to be an increasingly important issue.

[horizontally-opposed]

My apologies for the hijack - I just find mileage to be an increasingly important issue.

No worries, I think the two are kind of intertwined.

The guy working on my car right now is a real doomsdayer when it comes to gas, emissions, and global warming. And, yes, he is pained by the obvious conflict in his day job. Anyway, he ventured forth an interesting theory. One day, gas might be really, really cheap -- because we'll pay by the pound for our individual pollution. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) I dunno if I agree, but I can see politicians loving it.

I sure wish America hadn't made SUVs and big pickups its new family cars 15 years ago or so. Maybe high gas prices are actually going to be good for us, and for the environment. It's just a pity that, unlike in Europe, the money is going into corporations' pockets instead of back to taxpayers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Of course, that's assuming it would be used, uh, usefully... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

pete

[toon1]

Pete, I see the need for an article on tuning the 914 for MPG in the future :-)


[/quote


That would be awsome (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Joe Bob]

Florez...what a schmuck....or should I say pendejo....

All he'll do is take the beaters away from the people who elected his ass. Bet it's a pay back from some other "green bill" he voted against....

[LarryR]

Jake's philosophy ties in well with BMW's eta motors of the 1980s. They abandoned that route, something I never fully understood why because the cars were nice to drive so long as you didn't mind a 4500-rpm redline!

First thing I thought of too. A friend had a 325es back in the early 90s. Good car, not particularly exciting to drive. He sold it and bought a 325is. Same body (E30) and man what a huge difference in the personality of the car.

Yep, I like high-revvers for fun, but I have to say that a 528e (or, more accurately, my college girlfriend's 325e) is pretty damn nice around town. Roll the windows down, put the (manual!) sunroof back, and enjoy easy light to light driving. I thought that grunty straight six was pretty satisfying in its own way, but I wouldn't pick it to dance with...

But I'm starting to foresee a day when the character of what we drive on a daily basis will be very different. And a day when "hot" cars used as daily drivers (like the current GTI/335i/997/MazdaSpeed3/Mustang/350Z/etc.) won't be worth their operational cost in an everyday environment.

I hope I'm wrong.

pete

I dont know... My 74 with a 3.6 can pull off 30 mpg if I keep my foot out of it.

I do agree that gas mileage is putting a dampner on things. I just opted to start car pooling 3 days a week to lower my costs. My daily driver is a 96 jeep that gets a lousy 18 mpg. I started the carpool 3 weeks ago and have already saved 100's of dollars since my round trip commute is 100 miles and I carpool with 2 other people.

As for making older cars pass emissions it is just nuts!

My 74 will pass with flying colors. However, If I had to pass all the conversion criteria it would tank. It runs easily 20X cleaner than a stock 74 with cis but I dont run cats... I will just have to find a corrupt smog station if this sh*t passes.

I really think the one thing that they should relax on if they decide to smog older cars is to allow any modifications as long as it passes the sniffer. By making smog E.O. necessary they just squash the innovaition of mom and pop shops.