Good day turns bad, Master Cylinder? Options

[jfort]

finally get car all back together. Tach and shift light work. Clean it up for the triumphant, it all works, spin around the block. Car is running great. I'm flying down a country road with a smile on my face. This is what it's all about! Put on the breaks, I feel pedal "pop" and go to the floor. No brakes! Limp home. Reservoir is empty. Nothing at any caliper. A little fluid on garage floor under about the pedals. Master cylinder? I don't even know where it is, yet. Under gas tank? Behind pedal cluster? How does one get to the master cylinder? I am searching for my .pdf manual now. DAMN!

[davep]

MC is on the other side of the pedal cluster below the steering rack. You will need to remove the pan below the rack. Let us know what you find.

[VaccaRabite]

Check your 4 rubber lines between the wheels and the body and make sure none of them burst.

A "pop" indicates that something burst.

Zach

[pete-stevers]

glad nothing more happened!!
it coulda been a whole lot worse!

[jfort]

you were exactly right, zach. after cooling off a little, I looked closer at each wheel. left front line, where it connects to car, pushed off. coupling, looks to be brass, of braided steel line broke. i might as well replace all of them as long as i am doing it. better than master cylinder, as I first suspected, based on search of this board. that sounds like a PITA. anyone know the best place to buy a set of SS lines for a six?

[ArtechnikA]

you were exactly right, zach. after cooling off a little, I looked closer at each wheel. left front line, where it connects to car, pushed off. coupling, looks to be brass, of braided steel line broke. i might as well replace all of them as long as i am doing it. better than master cylinder, as I first suspected, based on search of this board. that sounds like a PITA. anyone know the best place to buy a set of SS lines for a six?

If you think MC is a PITA (it's not once you know the tricks...) you are in for a real treat when you do the rear flex lines...

This is *exactly* why people who hate SS brake lines hate SS brake lines.

I personally would get the DOT-rated lines from Earl's if I were going that route. My /6 had a set of Troutman's -- but that was in the days when they were probably assembled by Dick Troutman hisself...

I doubt I'd do SS lines again on a road car. 90+% track car maybe.

[jfort]

OK, now you have me scared. the front line connect looks so simple, but i haven't looked at the rear yet. what makes that so bad? what do i need to know? already ordered SS flexible lines from Pelican.

[Eric_Shea]

it's not once you know the tricks...

Is it a family secret? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

BTW... the "trick" on the rear flex lines is to; "cut them off as close to the coupler of the hard line and use a deep well socket to remove it."

Getting a backup wrench on the hard line can still be difficult (try some of the access holes through the tin), but this will save you a ton of effort and you won't have to wash your mouth out with soap afterward. Be scared... it's not fun with the engine in the car.

[Cap'n Krusty]

This type of failure is a "feature" of SS braided lines, DOT or not. Do yourself a huge favor. Buy the rubber lines the factory uses and forget the bling, the semi-annual visual inspections, the biennial replacement, and living with the never-knowing-when-they're-gonna-fail fear. Not, "if", but "when". You're lucky .......... you were able to stop the car with only a little "pucker". No dead people, no crashed cars, trees, sign posts, or property.

The Cap'n

[ArtechnikA]

it's not once you know the tricks...

Is it a family secret?

I didn't say it was secret - just tricky ...

I've done two /6's and a 4, never really had any difficulty. One of those /6's was a 23mm Mercedes MC.

The Trick is to dismount the reservoir lines from the car and assemble them into the MC with their horrible rubber gromets -ON THE BENCH- where you can see what you're doing and get some leverage. Then when you're confident that's all good, and the MC goes back into the car, thread the reservoir lines back up to the reservoir through their seal/grommets and reconnect.

Then - pressure bleeder.

For the back lines, cutting the old lines is a big help, especially if that deep socket is 6-point. I found that pulling the tensioning clip (small, sharp Vise-Grips) let me reposition the line to where I could get at both sides of the union more easily.

Finally - you MUST use flare nut wrenches on the hardline fittings.

[Spoke]

I just replaced all 4 braided flex lines on my 74. Didn't have a problem but when 5-lugging and rotating the front strut from side to side to check for any issues, I noticed the metal support between the flex hoses and hard line was moving back and forth because of the stiffness of the braided flex hose. I didn't want this flexing of the hard line to cause it to fatigue so I replaced all 4 with rubber hoses from PP.

[jfort]

bought SS braided lines from PP. THEY DON'T FIT! The male fittings at the car and at the caliper are too long and too thick (don't you hate having that problem?). Can the matching male fitting be purchased and installed or do I have to find someone who can make a matching hose? I am waiting for a call from PP, but I thought I'd ask this august group, too.

[Cap'n Krusty]

Yet another "feature" of SS braided teflon lines ...............

Can you tell I don't like 'em? The Cap'n

[jfort]

PP wasn't much help. "They've never had this problem." My front calipers are the alloy calipers off an early 911S, I believe. Could that be the reason for the different fitting?

[ArtechnikA]

PP wasn't much help. "They've never had this problem." My front calipers are the alloy calipers off an early 911S, I believe. Could that be the reason for the different fitting?

They are different ...

That said, I had SS lines on my S-caliper car and they fit fine. I'll go have a look tomorrow to see if there's anything special about the caliper-end fittings.

You may be able to exchange the front lines for 911S lines. The rears are unique to 914.

[VaccaRabite]

PP wasn't much help. "They've never had this problem." My front calipers are the alloy calipers off an early 911S, I believe. Could that be the reason for the different fitting?

Yes, probably. I don't know the what the coupling is on the 911 calipers.

But why did you just go out and buy another set of SS braided lines?
You have already had one catastrophic failure with them. Why take the chance with another pair?

Zach

[jfort]

Zach,

I didn't have the benefit of this thread prior to ordering. I should have asked and waited. I have rubber lines for 914 and 911 on the way. Also, I am told that there is a guy nearby who can make lines. I don't know if he'd have the correct fittings. I'll see.

[ArtechnikA]

I pulled my aluminum calipers out of the box and had a look. Nothin' magick enough to warrant a picture ('side which my primary desktop computer woke up dead so I'm posting without half my image-processing tools...).

There's a 8- or 9" section of standard hard line screwed directly into the fitting on the side of the caliper. That runs up to the tab on the strut tube, where it connects to the flex line; I'm 100% certain I used standard 914 flex lines, 'cause I had them before I had the aluminum S calipers.

If that doesn't match your situation, perhaps a picture of what you're trying to run would help because (sorry) "I've never encountered that" either...

[jfort]

to summarize, SS line from PP doesn't fit. black hose from parts supplier also doesn't fit. turns out there is an adapter for each end of the old SS line. see pix

[jfort]

here is the other end