the sawtooth build thread Options

[sawtooth]

Wanted to start a build thread for my na suby conversion. The car is my newly acquired '73 2.0L fi. It is very clean, appearance group, 2nd owner, 88K. I currently use it as my daily driver.



I want to do a suby conversion because I believe the overall package will have the performance, drivability, and dependability I'm looking for.

EDIT: I've changed motor selection slightly and am also taking a bigger plunge by going with a suby trans, see Post #49.

[KELTY360]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

Nice looking car. If it's as nice as it looks, a fairly stock, '73 2.0L FI is worth more as a stepping stone than a conversion car. Strictly my opinion, but I'd sell that car as is and find something a little more flawed to do the conversion. You could make some nice cash out of it and then increase the value of a 'lesser' car.

I've got no problems with doing a suby conversion, but with what we've seen in prices lately, a '73 2.0 has good value.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[DBCooper]

Could be, but how much less would a well converted car be worth, exactly? I doubt THAT much. He's getting a quieter engine, twice the horsepower, overhead cams, modern fuel injection, not needing to rebuild the T4, no oil leaks, never having to adjust valves again, or worry about dropped seats? For a thousand bucks? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal. In fact I think I'd be inclined to pay quite a lot more for a good conversion car, not less.

What was that? I think I just heard Jake groan.

Nice project, and smart to go NA. Good looking car, and it's going to be a lot of fun to drive.

[KELTY360]

Could be, but how much less would a well converted car be worth, exactly? I doubt THAT much. He's getting a quieter engine, twice the horsepower, overhead cams, modern fuel injection, not needing to rebuild the T4, no oil leaks, never having to adjust valves again, or worry about dropped seats? For a thousand bucks? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

What was that? I think I just heard Jake groan.

Nice project, and smart to go NA. Good looking car, and it's going to be a lot of fun to drive.

That's not the point. As it sits, a '73 2.0 with FI is probably worth $5-7K; unless it has serious rust issues. A '73 1.7 in comparable condition can probably had for $3K. That's $2-5K left on the table and the suby converted 1.7 will be be worth the same as a converted 2 litre. It's got nothing to do with whether the suby would be worth the same as the 2.0.

[zymurgist]

I've got no problems with doing a suby conversion, but with what we've seen in prices lately, a '73 2.0 has good value.

Speaking as someone who will be in the market for a 2.0 (once the Mercedes sells), I agree. If the 2.0 is reasonably nice with the FI system intact, you'll find somebody who wants it. I think the best conversion candidates are the 1.8's, a/k/a the redheaded stepchildren of the 914 family.

[brant]

pretty car
neat project
I kinda agree with the above

my uneducated guesses:
- stock rust free 1973 2.0 = 8-9K
- subaru conversion 1973 = 7k
-------------------
net loss of 2k plus the cost of the conversion


- 1975 (non running) 1.8 = 2k
- 1975 subaru conversion = 7k
------------------
you could pay for the new donor and the conversion costs by selling the 2liter, and then increase the value of the donor car by converting it.

of course I realize its not as simple as that. Your donor may need different interior work or may not have as nice of a paint job. It may even need suspension upgrades (although once you get bitten by the project bug, your probably going to do that to either chassis anyways)

brant

[DBCooper]

Could be I guess, I don't pay attention to used values that much. On the other hand I did just go over to e-bay and checked the "completed" 914 listings, and I didn't see that big a difference between 2.0 and 1.7/1.8 cars. There's a real big difference between running cars and crappy non-running cars though, no question.

One observation comes from looking at those e-bay cars. People running down conversions say they've seen lot of poorly converted cars. That might be because people who are trying to minimize costs start out with cars that are in poor condition to begin with. That obviously makes getting a good end result a lot more difficult. If you start out with a better car it may cost more in the beginning, but you also end up with a better car when you're done. And it appears that really good cars aren't that common, regardless of engine size.

Bottom line he's starting out with a good car, and is going to end up with a very nice car when done, at an extremely reasonable price. Still sounds like a pretty good plan to me. Not a perfect plan of course, but he says he'll throw in a turbo if he ever needs more power. That should fix it.

[jasons]

I'm not opposed to conversions, but your car looks too nice to cut.

Because you think you can do it cheap, isn't the right reason to do it. You should plan on doing it "right". And then determine how much "right" will cost. Especially on that car. Frankly, If that 73 2.0 is as nice as it looks, I think converting it is a mistake.

The 73 2.0 is probably the second most valuable (and rising) 914-4 after the LE. And your looks like a pristine candidate with the FI intact. That makes it a very desirable 73 2.0.

[DBCooper]

Make him an offer...

[DBCooper]

Brant says $8-9K...

[KELTY360]

OK, sure.

Hey sawtooth - I'll give you $6000 for the car, provided that the paint, trim and bumpers are as nice as pictured, the engine and trans operate properly and there is no substantial rust. PM me if you're interested.

[jasons]

Make him an offer...

LOL I already have a 73 2.0 with FI. Maybe I'm biased? Honestly the advice that would serve me the most would be to beg him to cut it. Thats one less 73 2.0 on the road. Maybe mine appreciates?

[jasons]

FWIW I don't know how the original posters car compares and I don't know how close these cars could sell to asking price, but if his car is 88k miles and 2 owner this is the company he might keep.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=647128

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=651297

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=603738

[DBCooper]

That's crazy, those are prices that I've seen sixes sell for. Truth is anybody can ask anything, but what it's worth is what it actually sells for instead of what someone HOPES it can sell for. That's the reason for looking at the e-bay "completed" listings, the only place I know to see real actual everyday selling prices. You'll see a lot of high "buy it now" and "reserve not met" prices there too, almost every one of them on cars that didn't sell.

So Sawtooth, what do you think? Have an auction, right here, see what that car is really worth? Could get interesting since you already have an opening bid of $6K and it's not even offered yet. And of course need to confirm the other side of the equation too, that you can really find a 1.7/1.8 as nice as the car you have and as cheap as these good folks say.

[jasons]

Anybody can ask anything, but what it's worth is what it actually sells for.

I agree asking price means jack crap. I kind of made the same point in my post, we don't know what these cars for sale are really worth. And, we don't know the condition of the original posters car. What I know for sure, his car won't be stock when its got a radiator and a Japanese motor. And, any chance of reaping the rewards of scoring a low mileage 2 owner car are gone forever.

I'm not against conversions. But some cars are survivors and this looks like one.

[DBCooper]

What I know for sure, his car won't be stock when its got a radiator and a Japanese motor. And, any chance of reaping the rewards of scoring a low mileage 2 owner car are gone forever.

I've heard that over and over, Jake chants it incessantly, for example, but it's not really true. The only "irreversible" changes made to the car are three pieces of metal removed for the radiator. Save those pieces and they're easily replaced if anyone ever wants to convert it back, which to my knowledge has never happened. Even if they aren't saved you're talking about the equivalent of relatively minor rust repair to put it back to stock. That's just not that big a deal, and as I said earlier I personally would pay MORE for a good converted car with a modern and more powerful boxer engine, because it would be a HECK of a lot more fun to drive. And if boxes of the original parts happen to come with it, bonus.

But that's just me, and I'm definitely not a concours kind of guy. Like I said, if somebody has real strong feelings about it they only need to make him an offer he can't refuse. Probably need to do it pretty quick, though...

[I can just see him grinning like a Cheshire cat as he reads this, wondering what the next unsolicited offer is gonna be...]

But to call an end to this discussion, he said in his very first post that he's read all these debates and is past that. It's his car, he knows what he's doing, which is interesting, so now why don't we just watch his build thread?

[jasons]

But to call an end to this discussion, he said in his very first post that he's read all these debates and is past that. It's his car, he knows what he's doing, which is interesting, so now why don't we just watch his build thread?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) This thread has been hijacked enough.

[tronporsche]

Good points made here. Not to keep things going , but just to throw in my point of view, I think Sawtooth should consider the point of selling the car and getting one that does not have as good mileage (cheaper), but the body is good, or frame 914 , and consider a couple of other things, as well. I have done a conversion on my car, and really enjoy it. It is definately worth NOT being a "contour" car, and all this value stuff.......well, maybe in another 30 years, because the only car collector enthusiasts that I have EVER heard about trying to find these 914s is ......us, 914 guys.( I wonder if Jay Leno has a 914 in his car collection....) But his (Sawtooth) car is immaculate stock from the start. Do you plan on modifying the body ? How about the interior ? Suspension, for sure, like said up above. If you are going to do these things, If it were me, after the experience I have had, (a good one) I would sell, the stock car, make a profit, (you already have a nice offer to put you ahead without having to wait for a buyer) and find a nice custom framed car, plan your COMPLETED project, and build off of the frame. You see, if you are going to change everything anyway, there simply is no need to keep this car, when you can make money off of it, buy one that is already stripped, and ready for modifications, for less money, or already done custom caged and all, and you will spend the same money anyways, but swapped a stock car for a custom chassis, without having to go throught the headache of having to sale all your individual pieces and parts !!! You might even want a tinted windshield. My point is , consider the overall project , not just the engine swap, to see if keeping this car is going to really benefit you in the long run, or are you really going to lose out on making some nice cash, finding another car you can take advantage of because you are doing a conversion, and be done with it. If you do a conversion, You are going to be adding torque to this car, that will twist the frame, you will need to add strength to the car, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif) as well as time and money. Why not get a car that already is pretty much where you want to be, just needing your engine, and your custom touch, this will save lots of time and headaches ( with that being said, this is why I brought my conversion already done in another 914, and just swapped everything over to my 914, trust me , this made life so much easier !!!)....... This is just what I would do. Wish you the best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sawtooth]

tron, that is an amazing looking car. And from one newby to another (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

I appreciate all the input. If I could get $8-9K as brant suggested I would have to consider it. But I don't think its a reality. The car is very clean but to get that kind of money it really needs minor rust work and paint. If I were paying that much for a 914 I'd expect it to have new paint.

The beauty of the NA suby conversion is that I'm not cutting up the car, if I ever wanted to take it back to stock it would be easy. Without the IC there's no need to cut the trunk. And I'm committed to making an engine bay radiator work, others have done it successfully. The only body change I would like to do is steel flares at some point, but that has nothing to do with the conversion and the six guys do it all the time.

The other factor is that it's important for me to start and end with a very clean car. That way I can be finished, and enjoying the car in months, not years. Clean stock interiors are also rare and fairly expensive to build. And this one has a great interior.

What should I be able to get if I sold the complete 2.0L plug-n-play setup, (engine, djet, wiring, exhaust, etc.)? From what I've been seeing $1K wouldn't be unreasonable. That reduces the difference in using a 2.0 car vs 1.8/1.7.

[jd74914]

Sawtooth,

Hopefully these guys didn't scare you off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) :wink:

I'm really looking forward to seeing more of this build!

James