Sound from the rear-Part II, Bushing not greaed properly Options

[jim_hoyland]

The sound finally went away with an heavier application from the grease gun into the zirks yesterday. I used a heavy duty tractor bearing grease

I have been told that the bushing should have silicone grease on their outer surface and under the flange, which makes sense now. So I'll pull the arms, remove the bushings and try the silicone grease.

The creak started to come back today, albeit less noisy.

Any tip on do's / dont's on greasing bushings will be appreciated

[r_towle]

My first piece of advice would be to bin them.
Get the bearings from Shine racing www.srsvw.com.
Or
Get the brass ones from elephant racing.

If you must stick with the plastic.
take a dremel and make a spiral groove inside to ensure the grease has a home. The groove should intersect the zirk fitting.

Rich

[Eric_Shea]

Rich, are you familiar with the hardness measurement of these bushings? Have you actually seen a set of these or, are you giving recommendations off the 94D bushings that are common out there?

Jim, got your emails thanks. I'll post here as well so others can get a straight answer.

Hard bushings "do" have this tendancy if tight on the shaft which is why I recommend the zerks. We have had some fit loose in the arms which is why I recommended the shim stock in the bushing thread. They simply shouldn't be moving in the arm, they should pivot smoothly on the shaft.

From reading your second email it sounds like you've licked the problem with an ample amount of lube... perfect. It may come back again as the arm works it's way into a solid fit. After that, it should be normal maintance lubrication. We've found that a loose(er) bushing will not do this. It's best to have the slide on the arm when cool or to have the shaft pivot freely when finally installed in the arm. That being said I personally like to have them tighter at first (like yours) and let them work themselves in.

With Thomas on the job you're in good hands.

[r_towle]

Rich, are you familiar with the hardness measurement of these bushings? Have you actually seen a set of these or, are you giving recommendations off the 94D bushings that are common out there?

Nope, I dont keep a hardness testing machine in my shop.
I do know however that if plastic was the preffered material, alot more production cars would use it, also alot more race cars would use it, neither do.

I have personally installed two sets of plastic bushings in my car. Both sets made the same noise. Both sets had grease fittings. Both sets fit perfectly when installed. Both sets ovaled out within one year.

Brass and bronze are harder than plastic.
Bearings (steel) are harder than plastic.

I'll post here as well so others can get a straight answer.

Keep in mind this is your answer, not one that we all should bow down to and obey. Its and answer, yes.

He asked, I answered and it was a straight answer with experience to back it up.
I did not insult you by stating that your answer was BS...
On a scale of 1-3 with 1 being the best.
Bearings are a 1
Brass bushings are a 2
Plastic is a 3.

I will never use the plastic bushings again. Its to much aggravation, and to much work to get them to shut up.
Bearings go in once, all done and the arm move perfectly after install with little to no resistance.

Rich

[Eric_Shea]

Frankly, I think (know) you're talking out of your ass.

They're not plastic and they're a great bushing if installed properly. These 70D's should last as long as the factory bushings if maintained properly.

If you have no experience with 70D bushings you shouldn't pretend that you do.

[r_towle]

Frankly, I think (know) you're talking out of your ass.

They're not plastic and they're a great bushing if installed properly. These 70D's should last as long as the factory bushings if maintained properly.

If you have no experience with 70D bushings you shouldn't pretend that you do.

Eric,
You take things to personal and then attack personally.
I did not do that. I respect your opinion.
I value my experience and I dont talk out my ass, thanx.
I have replaced these bushings...I know how fun it can be.
I disagree with you, get over yourself.
You loose respect when you attack, its not needed.

Jim is a big boy, he can hear other opinions besides yours and make a decision.
Dont get all defensive, its a bad sign.

Why dont you explain the superior properties of your plastic bushings versus other plastic bushings...you obviously have done some research.
Then, please compare them to Brass/bronze and bearings.
Show the harness index of all of them.
Show the friction results of all of them.

They're not plastic and they're a great bushing if installed properly.

Polyoxymethylene (POM), in the USA also commonly known under DuPont's brand name Delrin, is an engineering plastic, a polymer with the chemical formula -(-O-CH2-)n-.

I will shut up if you can show me how superior they are...I will make a public apology because I am a big boy.

He asked what to do...I still believe that brass/bronze or bearings are a better solution to the problem.

Rich

[Eric_Shea]

bow down to and obey

get over yourself

Wonder why I would respond the way I do? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) How about; don't be a condescending &^$#... it's a bad sign.

I asked if you were familiar with these Rich. You replied "Nope". Yet you advised Jim to "bin" them, again, without (admittedly) having any experience with them.

Others are reading your drivel and it is incorrect.

When honed and installed properly these extremely hard "70D Polyurethane (PU)" (not Polyoxymethylene POM) bushings are an "excellent" solution. At $19.00, they're an "awesome" solution. MANY race vehicles use all sorts of "plastic" bushings with much success. Let's learn something about 70D Polyurethane:

Hardness (shore D) ASTM D-2240 70 ± 5
Tensile Strength (psi) ASTM D-638 5,350 (about 2,350 psi higher than your "Shine" bearings)
Elongation at Break ASTM D-638 4% (they basically don't stretch)
Compression Strength (psi) ASTM D-695 NA (they don't compress)
Ultimate Flex Strength (psi) ASTM D-790 9,000 (more than 3x the weight of a 914)

I'm not here to argue with you about the superior properties of 70D polyurethane vs. plastic vs. bronze vs. bearings. I'm saying these are excellent bushings when installed properly and flat out: You are speaking of which you do not have experience or knowledge. I've replaced over 100 of these.

You are speaking of 94D poly bushings; and I agree with you. Those distort, oval and flex and can become detrimental to your car, actually damaging your suspension pan (front) in some cases. They are hard to stop from squeaking as well.

When you lump 70D poly bushings into the 94D category, without having held one in your hand, or installed one (hence talking out of your ass); I disagree with you.

Jim is a big boy and he made a decision already. I'm attempting to help him with his current purchase vs. have him spend more money and have more down time. Was it the only decision? No... it was Jim's decision. It was a great purchase decision. I sell all three types of bushings/bearings you refer to. The bronze and the bearings are "EXCELLENT" solutions as well. That's not what this is about.

UNDERSTAND: What gets me defensive Rich (besides your blatant condescending tone) is when you tell Jim and others reading along to shit-bag something that you admittedly have no experience with. 70D Poly bushings are a great solution. You simply have to know how to install them.

Bow and obey... nice Rich. Get over yourself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[r_towle]

sounds like a sales response.
his are squeaking/creaking...

Rich

[r_towle]

I'll post here as well so others can get a straight answer.

Keep in mind this is your answer, not one that we all should bow down to and obey. Its and answer, yes.
Rich

Its an opinion, nothing to get personal about.
You may feel you are right. I do not.
You can keep flinging insult out, you wont get one back.


Rich

[Joe Bob]

Hmmm, on a recent install of hard bushings I got loud squeaks from Weltmeister installs. Wasn't acceptable to me.

I grooved them and added a zirc. I thought that was a no brainer....

[Eric_Shea]

sounds like a sales response.

I responded with the correct information in my very first post herein (unlike yourself). Not a "sales response" just facts on what he was up against. You should re-read.

What sounds like a sales response was in direct response to your request. You do remember typing?:

Why dont you explain the superior properties of your plastic bushings versus other plastic bushings...you obviously have done some research.

... this elicits yet another condescending remark from you. Was I out of line in my reply to you?

Again Rich, If you have no experience with these "specific" bushings please don't offer your misinformation to others.

I responded to Jim's question about his squeaking bushing after he had already solved the problem with more lubrication. The "straight" answer I supplied was to have the bushing slightly looser and lubricate more.

Real-world problem solved by Thomas and Jim without your "solution".

I'll reiterate because it doesn't seem to be sinking in; if you don't know what you are talking about... please refrain from doing so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No insults... just facts.

[r_towle]

If you must stick with the plastic.
take a dremel and make a spiral groove inside to ensure the grease has a home. The groove should intersect the zirk fitting.

Rich

My first response, a helpful solution. Post number 2.
Beating me down in the next sentence, your first sentence in your response was not needed. What part of my answer was not straight? Was I not straight in how I phrased my opinion?

Then you go on to say EXACTLY what I said...grease fittings..
I added the additional grooves to keep more grease in the bushing.

If you had agreed instead we would not be wasting energy arguing what I consider is now a moot point...

So, you gonna vote for Obama or McCain? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
Same thing...two opinions.


Rich

[736conver]

My first response, a helpful solution.

No your first response was to throw away the product Eric set him up with.

[greenie]

Guys,

Just a thought ... maybe it's not the bushing creaking. It just might be Jims thighs rubbing.

Jim you still wearing these yellow shorts?

Suggestion ...try putting some long pants on,see if you're still getting the noise?

[jim_hoyland]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) I switched over to blue when the squeaking started to see if it made a difference. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

Guys,

Just a thought ... maybe it's not the bushing creaking. It just might be Jims thighs rubbing.

Jim you still wearing these yellow shorts?

Suggestion ...try putting some long pants on,see if you're still getting the noise?

[Eric_Shea]

Grooves are unnecessary. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Zerks are in the instructions and were already on Jim's arms.

Let's make it simple:

Question:

Rich, are you familiar with the hardness measurement of these bushings? Have you actually seen a set of these or, are you giving recommendations off the 94D bushings that are common out there?

Reply:

Nope

Data on 70D Hard Poly Bushings:

Hardness (shore D) ASTM D-2240 70 ± 5
Tensile Strength (psi) ASTM D-638 5,350 (about 2,350 psi higher than your "Shine" bearings)
Elongation at Break ASTM D-638 4% (they basically don't stretch)
Compression Strength (psi) ASTM D-695 NA (they don't compress)
Ultimate Flex Strength (psi) ASTM D-790 9,000 (more than 3x the weight of a 914)

Personal Experience with 94D Poly Bushings (notice the difference in the Shore D hardness rating):

I have personally installed two sets of plastic bushings in my car. Both sets made the same noise. Both sets had grease fittings. Both sets fit perfectly when installed. Both sets ovaled out within one year.

If you had agreed instead we would not be wasting energy arguing what I consider is now a moot point...

You see... I don't agree with you and neither do the facts or data. These bushings don't compress or oval like the standard 94D poly bushings that 90% of the people buy. Those are the bushings you have experience with and those are the bushings you are confusing these with herein. Jim should not "bin" them in my opinion so, I don’t agree. I have an inclining that you are smart enough to understand a Shore D rating of 94 vs. 70 so... please stop.

I will shut up if you can show me how superior they are...I will make a public apology because I am a big boy.

Please do... at least the shut up part. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[r_towle]

I would shut up if you offered help and advice instead of attacking me to support your product.

I dont like online bullies and I dare say that most others dont either.
This is why I will not back down and let you win a pointless arguement so you can feel right.
Your behaviour is just turning me off to this board.
I offered advice and a solution in my first post.
You decided to toss a few insults to make you feel bigger and better and you still wont stop.

Is this your board now?

They are plastic...call it PU or POM...Polyeurethane is plastic...
Did I say plastic...is that a bad word now, plastic??
they are harder, yippee.
They still squeak.

We agreed that he needed grease fittings and I add the additional grooves to retain more grease over time and reduce the additional maintenance needed with plastic bushings. Many others do this as well.
Again, other opinions.

I get the pleasure of greasing my truck, every one of the twenty something fittings. Getting under the 914 after each rain storm to grease the creaking bushings is just not worth it in my opinion...and that is what it is, an opinion.

If you cant let someone have an opinion different than yours, dont leave the house and dont try to hold a conversation with anyone...you might get angry that the other person has an opinion...

Rich

[Eric_Shea]

I would shut up if you offered help and advice instead of attacking me to support your product.

Hmmmm... let's see (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

My first piece of advice would be to bin them.

I get it! I'm not allowed to clear up misconceptions you spread about a quality product I sell. Bully. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I dont like online bullies and I dare say that most others dont either.
This is why I will not back down and let you win a pointless arguement so you can feel right.
Your behaviour is just turning me off to this board.

(IMG:http://www.crystalconcert.com/Site/images/dean_bw_violin.jpg)

Cry me a river. You tell someone to throw the bushings I sold them out. I pretty much prove you don't know WTF you're talking about. You continue your rant even though you've admittedly had no experience with these bushings... I'm an "online bully" R-I-G-H-T. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Is this your board now?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/jerkit.gif)

You can do better than that.

If you cant let someone have an opinion different than yours, dont leave the house and dont try to hold a conversation with anyone...you might get angry that the other person has an opinion...

Yes Sir. I proimise to stay indoors.

Jim... is that a 70D Poly bushing in your pocket? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol3.gif)

[Joe Bob]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[r_towle]

I will quote myself so you can remember.

I offered advice and a solution in my first post.

you agreed with that advice and threw a few insults in for good measure.
You are someone who cant handle an opposing opinion.

They are plastic...call it PU or POM...Polyeurethane is plastic...
Did I say plastic...is that a bad word now, plastic??
They are harder, yippee.
They still squeak.

They are harder so they wont oval out...time will prove that theory true or false.

Sorry you love them, I think plastic bushings suck.
Get over it.
you may think in your little mind that you proved me wrong...you only proved your an ass.

Rich