What turbo should I buy? Options

[RJMII]

What that gold thing does. =o)

I went and took my turbo apart to take some pics for you. This should help some with basic questions understand a little bit more.

That is for the waste gate a C Clip should hold that on there.. Some hot rodder's weld it so it doesnt open for max boost.. When the Booost reaches its pressure the wastegate opens waisting boost back into the exhaust system..

LOL yeah, we know. I pulled the c clip off to take the picture so I could answer his question. read the previous two pages where I fill in the details that go with the picture. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

here: let me make it easier for you:

On the first link to an ebay turbo, what is the giant gold piece hanging off the turbo, i see those on a lot of turbo's but haven't been able to identify what it actually is? What is it?

There is a little diaphraghm in there that pushes on the rod. There is a vacuum/boost line that goes to the manifold that builds pressure inside of the one side of the diaphragm. the other side has the rod on it, which, in turn, opens the wastegate to release exhaust gasses that would otherwise be spinning the impellers.

[turnaround89]

Ok, since im in the decision making process of efi or staying with carbs, im trying to read as much about both.

With carbs and turbo, you have to retard the timing, is this the module that i would need in order to do that? Or are there other things that i need or a better module to control timing retard?

Thanks

[RJMII]

I'm going to go ahead and just sit back and watch now. =o)

[turnaround89]

Found what i was looking for!

[ONTHEGRIND]

With a carb you need to be sure that the fuel pressure is changing along with the boost. if it were me I'd take a subie kit make the manifold fit to the t-4 cylinder heads..

[ottox914]

More reference material: Turbocharging Performance Handbook, by Jeff Hartman, published by motorbooks.

Ignition retard: pg 178 and 228 of maximum boost.
Carbs and turbos: pg 101-110 of maximum boost.

Reading and understanding are one thing, blowing stuff up and re-doing it is another, and leads to a more well rounded understanding of how and why. Read up, make your plans, build it, see if it breaks, come up with better ideas, build it some more.

[turnaround89]

That was the method with the baja bug, build it, beat the crap out of it, if it held together i did pretty well, if it didn't, well theres a problem.Luckily it all held together. Thanks ottox914.

[nein14]

More reference material: Turbocharging Performance Handbook, by Jeff Hartman, published by motorbooks.

Ignition retard: pg 178 and 228 of maximum boost.
Carbs and turbos: pg 101-110 of maximum boost.

Reading and understanding are one thing, blowing stuff up and re-doing it is another, and leads to a more well rounded understanding of how and why. Read up, make your plans, build it, see if it breaks, come up with better ideas, build it some more.

That is a costly build concept, we all learn from mistakes but that I think if that's what happened to your motor it appears you didn't retain much of what you were reading. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[RJMII]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-262-1231725303.jpg)

BTW there is no issue with heat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That reminds me of the 3d pipe screen saver in WindowsXP.

[charliew]

I think I posted earlier it will be a lot less expensive to copy a setup that already works and get that perfected and understand why it works and then if you still have any money make more hp after you have a real good idea of the basics. A boosted motor doesn't live long if it has many glitches if it's really high performance. Just getting crummy gas can be doom to some setups.

[RJMII]

That is a costly build concept, we all learn from mistakes but that I think if that's what happened to your motor it appears you didn't retain much of what you were reading. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

John,

I've been looking for your build thread... I bet it has some good info in it that could be useful.


I'd like to see how you went about building yours. =o) Why learn from my own mistakes when someone else might have made them already?

I think I posted earlier it will be a lot less expensive to copy a setup that already works and get that perfected and understand why it works and then if you still have any money make more hp after you have a real good idea of the basics. A boosted motor doesn't live long if it has many glitches if it's really high performance. Just getting crummy gas can be doom to some setups.

ottox's thread has it all practically layed out for how to go about "slapping a turbo on the car" with minimal piping, no cutting up the car, and it looks like it belongs there.


Dave,

thanks for posting your thread for the past two + years, I've already found at least 2 ideas that I'm going to be seeing how feasible they would be to apply towards my build.



There's an aftermarket Corvette kit that follows the same approach as Dave/Ottox's by putting the turbo setup under the car where the mufflers were and it actually reduces the weight of the 'vette.

[rusty914]

After some pm's i had with RJMII, i am gonna look into and aftermarket efi system, instead of running carbs. The carbs that i already bought for the 914 will go onto my baja bug, ill need different intakes, but at least they don't go to waste that way. Or maybe even sell them and put that money into the 914 efi + turbo setup.

Megasquirt may be the way i will go. I got a little more reading about microsquirt to do, but i think megasquirt might be the best choice.

If i go efi, the turbo will go from the original idea of draw-through to a blow through setup. That way i could run the intercooler and keep temps lower.

Im mainly in the stage right now of deciding on efi or carbs. Sooner or later my 914 will have a turbo. I have to wait for a bonus i get from work to start purchasing parts. Woodman's is an awesome part-time job, grocery store in the midwest area, mainly Wisconsin and northern Illinois.

Sorry for flipping out, just don't like advice of giving up at all. Ottox914 and chairliew, my apologies, you are only trying to help. thank you!

Before you commit to an EFI injection system which is very $$$, by the time you done with your conversion you will be in the cost range of doing a 3.0 /6 911 motor.

Another option is to use Bosch CIS injection which is what my Turbo is using, which is the same design principle as the Porsche 930 onlty a 4 cyl. version.

Very very reliable, and a cost effective conversion. I run 10lbs. of boost on the street on premium and have run 14 lbs. on 100 octane on the track with the Caroll Water Injection system I have and the car does not have a intercooler.

This can also has a 3 qt. accusump and a front mount oil cooler and has been running this set up since 2002 thats 7 years !!!!!!
Very very reliable and can be driven as a daily driver! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

Geat a copy of Excellence magazine June 02' there is a 4 page article on the car (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Good luck with your project keep me posted on your progress.

John, your car's turbo set up has always intrigued me. I've ordered up the Excellence June '02 issue. I was wondering if there is a build thread on your car from when it was originally turboed?

[turnaround89]

Ive been looking at a lot of type 1's with turbos and have been reading what those guys are running on their manx's and bugs. Theres one that is a complete backyard engineering and works pretty well. I have been looking at that setup because it is very basic, and pretty simple to follow. He listed everything that he is using with the turbo, which is helpful. Reading up on that thread, i learned what i needed to about to run approx. for timing retard. This is a type 1 engine, so not everything will transfer perfectly, but by following his setup, i can at least understand what's going on. The major difference between his turbo setup and mine would be the tuning settings would probably be different.

I still have a question that i have not gotten a good answer for. Ive read that with a turbo, the fuel pressure must raise with boost. However, it seems like if you run low boost you don't need this, but higher boost numbers need to have the fuel pressure raise with boost. My question is, is that after reading through the backyard engineering thread the guy uses a Holley Red fuel pump, that only puts out 7psi. The guy says he runs 15 pounds of boost on his type 1 motor. 15 pounds of boost is way more than 7psi. Shouldn't it be that if you run 15 pounds of boost you need 15 psi from the fuel pump? So if i run 10 pounds of boost, when the turbo reaches full boost my fuel pump will be putting out 10psi? thats what i need answered.

here is the thread
Backyard Engineering Turbo

[andys]

I still have a question that i have not gotten a good answer for. Ive read that with a turbo, the fuel pressure must raise with boost. However, it seems like if you run low boost you don't need this, but higher boost numbers need to have the fuel pressure raise with boost. My question is, is that after reading through the backyard engineering thread the guy uses a Holley Red fuel pump, that only puts out 7psi. The guy says he runs 15 pounds of boost on his type 1 motor. 15 pounds of boost is way more than 7psi. Shouldn't it be that if you run 15 pounds of boost you need 15 psi from the fuel pump? So if i run 10 pounds of boost, when the turbo reaches full boost my fuel pump will be putting out 10psi? thats what i need answered.

here is the thread
Backyard Engineering Turbo

The "Backyard" thread you reference is for a draw-through (wet turbo) system. There is no need to increase fuel pressure with boost on a configuration such as that. The carb is ahead of the turbo and takes its reference from the demand (velocity). In the early days of turbocharging, the draw-through system was widely used; and yes, it is quite simple to do. I built a couple of conversions that way.

Andy1

[turnaround89]

Awesome, because i have been looking into draw through and never could find a definite answer for that question. thanks andys

[andys]

Awesome, because i have been looking into draw through and never could find a definite answer for that question. thanks andys

Also, someone I think posted earlier that on a draw-through your turbo requires a carbon seal on the intake side. This is necessary due mainly to the amount of vacuum the intake side of the turbo will see, and will keep you from pulling oil from the bearing and into the intake. I had a carbon seal go bad on me once on a draw-through, and the car billowed blue oil smoke durring decel and at idle. Most modern turbos offer an intake seal (are they still carbon face seals?).

Andys

[Pat Garvey]

I am getting ready to turbo my 1.8L engine. And I already know that you can't turbo a 914. But, what i would like to know is what are good cars to get turbo's off of?

I am looking for a small turbo that will spool quickly. Looking to run about 7 to 10 pounds of boost.

What turbo'd cars will give me a good turbo to use? I have been looking for ones on ebay, but don't really want to buy one there. I don't mind buying a used one, so going to the junkyard and getting one is definitely an option.

Which turbo?

Ummmm, why?

There are far more reliable ways to get plus hp. Oh yeah, they cost money. A turbo system will, unless designed by some highly reputable people on this site, will crash.

Research & talk to the mentors on this topic. It can/has been done. Just be aware of the troubles & possibilities for extreme failures.

Power = cheap? Noppir. Power = high tech & big bucks? Yeppir!

Like life - nothing good comes from no sacrifice ($).

My 1 cent.

[nein14]

Ive been looking at a lot of type 1's with turbos and have been reading what those guys are running on their manx's and bugs. Theres one that is a complete backyard engineering and works pretty well. I have been looking at that setup because it is very basic, and pretty simple to follow. He listed everything that he is using with the turbo, which is helpful. Reading up on that thread, i learned what i needed to about to run approx. for timing retard. This is a type 1 engine, so not everything will transfer perfectly, but by following his setup, i can at least understand what's going on. The major difference between his turbo setup and mine would be the tuning settings would probably be different.

I still have a question that i have not gotten a good answer for. Ive read that with a turbo, the fuel pressure must raise with boost. However, it seems like if you run low boost you don't need this, but higher boost numbers need to have the fuel pressure raise with boost. My question is, is that after reading through the backyard engineering thread the guy uses a Holley Red fuel pump, that only puts out 7psi. The guy says he runs 15 pounds of boost on his type 1 motor. 15 pounds of boost is way more than 7psi. Shouldn't it be that if you run 15 pounds of boost you need 15 psi from the fuel pump? So if i run 10 pounds of boost, when the turbo reaches full boost my fuel pump will be putting out 10psi? thats what i need answered.

here is the thread
Backyard Engineering Turbo

The reason that the CIS Bosch injection system was selected is because of fuel pressure delivery. This system is a mirror of the 930 CIS system with a fuel pump that has a 80 psi operating pressure, so with other injection system like SDS I have know idea if that system could handle a fuel pump that put out that much pressure.

So there is no need to try to determine if you have enough fuel pressure so you don't run out of fuel under boost.

The only other issue was the injector selection so I'm using the largest Bosch CIS fuel injectors with the highest fuel delivery avaliable.

That is why the motor has run flawlessly for 7 years, so that is why when Porsche engineers designed the CIS system for the 930's it been so sucessfull.

Did you ever hear "if it ain't broke don't fix it" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

BTW RJMII Sorry there is no build thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[turnaround89]

Most modern turbos offer an intake seal (are they still carbon face seals?)

No, most turbos, come with a dynamic seal, which will not work with draw through, like you mentioned. I have read over monster turbocharged volkswagon about how to actually change to a carbon seal. the hard part about changing to a carbon seal, is finding the thrust collar and carbon seal plate. I have not located those parts yet, well, i located the thrust collar, but you have to buy the whole rebuild kit which i don't want to have to do since the turbo will be brand new. I guess a couple extra parts never hurt.

Im totally aware of the possible screw ups that can/may happen. Learn by your mistakes. It may be expensive that way, but if thats what it takes to learn how to run a turbo, then so be it. If i screw up, ill try again, until i get it right.

when all else fails, try, try, try again!!

[rtalich]

Im totally aware of the possible screw ups that can/may happen. Learn by your mistakes. It may be expensive that way, but if thats what it takes to learn how to run a turbo, then so be it. If i screw up, ill try again, until i get it right.

when all else fails, try, try, try again!!

My 2 cents... Why put yourself thru the trouble? Why not take advice from experienced people and do it right the first time? Why do you think you need to experience the failures for yourself in order to learn how to implement a turbo? If you're trying to accomplish this on a tight budget then it sounds like Dave's implementation is the way to go and he has documented it pretty well.

Its just hard to read posts like this and not chime in... sounds like theres nothing anyone can do to pursuade you either way. You could still do it the right way and still learn a thing or two. Or, in this case, listen to peolpe that have been in your shoes, wanting to boost their type IV and have done it successfully through trial and error. Just trying to save you some $$$$ dude.