What turbo should I buy? Options

[andys]

Long ago: The '63 Olds turbo needed a new carbon seal which was NLA in '68 or '69 (can you imagine that?). I went to Air Research (they mfg the turbo for Olds) near LAX and they refered me to Pure Carbon Co. as they had no seals (though they gave me a set of bearings for free). I contacted Pure Carbon and they had no seals, but gave me some carbon blanks of the correct composition that I could machine. Broke two blanks before I got a good result, but at least I got my seal!

BTW, I think the turbo conversion done by nein 14 is an intelligent solution using proven OEM stuff; well done!

Andys

[nein14]

Im totally aware of the possible screw ups that can/may happen. Learn by your mistakes. It may be expensive that way, but if thats what it takes to learn how to run a turbo, then so be it. If i screw up, ill try again, until i get it right.

when all else fails, try, try, try again!!

My 2 cents... Why put yourself thru the trouble? Why not take advice from experienced people and do it right the first time? Why do you think you need to experience the failures for yourself in order to learn how to implement a turbo? If you're trying to accomplish this on a tight budget then it sounds like Dave's implementation is the way to go and he has documented it pretty well.

Its just hard to read posts like this and not chime in... sounds like theres nothing anyone can do to pursuade you either way. You could still do it the right way and still learn a thing or two. Or, in this case, listen to peolpe that have been in your shoes, wanting to boost their type IV and have done it successfully through trial and error. Just trying to save you some $$$$ dude.

I have to disagree with the tight budget of Dave's implementation, his SDS injection alone was most likely more than cost of all my parts used in my conversion.

Also from what I read in his build thread it did not run that long sucessfully for a extended time period without issues.

[nein14]

Long ago: The '63 Olds turbo needed a new carbon seal which was NLA in '68 or '69 (can you imagine that?). I went to Air Research (they mfg the turbo for Olds) near LAX and they refered me to Pure Carbon Co. as they had no seals (though they gave me a set of bearings for free). I contacted Pure Carbon and they had no seals, but gave me some carbon blanks of the correct composition that I could machine. Broke two blanks before I got a good result, but at least I got my seal!

BTW, I think the turbo conversion done by nein 14 is an intelligent solution using proven OEM stuff; well done!

Andys

Thanks , Andys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[iamchappy]

I agree with the others on this, learn from the wisdom of the old Grasshopper.

[rtalich]

Im totally aware of the possible screw ups that can/may happen. Learn by your mistakes. It may be expensive that way, but if thats what it takes to learn how to run a turbo, then so be it. If i screw up, ill try again, until i get it right.

when all else fails, try, try, try again!!

My 2 cents... Why put yourself thru the trouble? Why not take advice from experienced people and do it right the first time? Why do you think you need to experience the failures for yourself in order to learn how to implement a turbo? If you're trying to accomplish this on a tight budget then it sounds like Dave's implementation is the way to go and he has documented it pretty well.

Its just hard to read posts like this and not chime in... sounds like theres nothing anyone can do to pursuade you either way. You could still do it the right way and still learn a thing or two. Or, in this case, listen to peolpe that have been in your shoes, wanting to boost their type IV and have done it successfully through trial and error. Just trying to save you some $$$$ dude.

I have to disagree with the tight budget of Dave's implementation, his SDS injection alone was most likely more than cost of all my parts used in my conversion.

Also from what I read in his build thread it did not run that long sucessfully for a extended time period without issues.

OK... bad example, I guess. It is well documented to say the least. Just wanted to get a point across.

[turnaround89]

I am taking the advice from the experienced people and reading about how they set up there turbo's. however, when your new at something your not perfect at it, so mistakes can happen. Not saying they will, but there is always the possibility of screwing something up, that, i think is the nature of the game. I can give this project my all, and something might just not go right, that was a little unexpected.

Of course i want to save money, who doesn't, but when the unexpected happens, there's not much you can do about the unexpected.

As for the carbon seal, i have found this website. They seem to have everything but the carbon seal plate, that the carbon seal sits in.
T3 seal kits

Would i need to buy the encapsulated carbon seal or the 4 pc carbon seal, or even both to convert to a carbon seal? In order to get those, i need to buy the 100 dollar rebuild kit.

By the looks of this picture, i would only need the encapsulated seal
(IMG:http://www.smbaker.com/rail/carbonseal800.jpg)

The big silver thing(carbon seal plate) in the bottom left corner of the rebuild kit is what i need to find
(IMG:http://www.smbaker.com/rail/rhb5rebuild800.jpg)

[ottox914]

Reading and understanding are one thing, blowing stuff up and re-doing it is another, and leads to a more well rounded understanding of how and why. Read up, make your plans, build it, see if it breaks, come up with better ideas, build it some more.

My intent in making this comment was not to imply that you needed a large wad of cash, or a bottomless pit of stuff to break, but to get the point across that if you build it, you'll gain a better understanding of how it works, and if/when it breaks, you'll be in a better situation to understand the failure mode and how to repair/avoid it again in the future.

My SDS is a fine example. I am more interested in the overall engineering of the turbo system than the workings of the EFI. I could have built myself a mega-squirt system, but knew of others who had and ended up with problems getting the build right, then working thru the screens and screens of programing, and if one little thing is off, say the voltage range for the TPS on the system set up does not match the actual range of the TPS used, more trouble shooting to find and fix this, IF you don't pop a motor trying to tune around the problem. I elected to spend a little more and go with a proven system, and had great fun designing the layout of the wiring harness, fuel lines, linkages, and ecu location. Much more fun than I would have had tracking down a diode that I installed backwards one night at 9pm. If the SDS fails, I won't know where to start, but with the beyond excellent customer service they have shown me, I won't have to. I chose not to get more educated by the been there done that school for the efi part of the project, but I did a TON of research on what unit to buy.

Whats that got to do w/a turbo on a 914? EvilEd did not make a kit for his system, he used an idea for CIS, that I think, but may not recall completely, was a retro-fit offered as a kit for for bus engines, and morphed that into a very good 914 system, but for the most part, its a one off build. Chappy has done amazing things with his turbo system, and in his quest for fire, or rather power, had moved up into bigger and better engines. He was more interested in building the perfect 914, so he applied his efforts in that direction, farming out the motor build.

My system is loosely based on the kits from STS. Google STS turbo and you'll get to their site. My turbo car has been an evolution. I bought the ITB's from Jake several years before I used them, as I was thinking NA at that time. So step one was to mount the ITB's, get fuel and linkages figured out, install and tune the SDS. I strongly considered selling the ITB's and going CIS for the turbo, when the turbo bug bit, as I had been following Ed's build closely, but went SDS for several reasons: Its a great system that has all the features I need, and few I don't, service/support is excellent, and it controls spark and fuel. That was probably the big reason I didn't go CIS, I wanted to be able to fine tune the ignition curve for NA and boosted operation. I also liked the clean look of the engine compartment with the ITB's and the harness/fuel lines tucked up out of the way, and there was LOTS of room for an intercooler as well.

As far as the system not being reliable, well, draw your own conclusions. The motor in the car currently is probably 12 or more yrs into its last re-build, and was using some oil prior to the turbo. I was figuring that with running a dozen auto crosses and schools a year, for the last 10 yrs, that I had maybe a yr or 2 left in the motor before it would be really needing a re-build, just on general principles and accumulated beatings/mileage. If I'm finishing top 10 in 100+ car grids I'm not being any to easy on the hardware to do this. So putting the turbo on it was not at all the cause of my doing a new motor, it was part of the plan. Using a tired motor for the test subject, if I really messed up and popped it, not much lost. I have proven to myself the system as it is installed all works as it should. The turbo and motor have stood up to 11.5psi on pump gas. My school of hard knocks intercooler plenum and fan set up will be improved upon for the new motor, and with better heads and cam, the whole system should breath much better, which should spool the turbo sooner, and its all good in the end. When will it be "done"? Never. And for me, thats part of the fun.

Whose system is best? Blonde, brunette, or red head? Chappy has made the most amazing street 914 I could imagine. Trunk space has been lost, mega horse power and super-coolness found. Ed's/Nein's set up tucks into the factory location, not even loosing the raintray, and has been as reliable as gravity for 7 yrs of boost. Outstanding! And while the cost of the "used" parts is less than what I have into mine, I suspect if there was a 10 page build thread there was plenty of machine work and trial and error to get it right. Mine is a little different still, and works fine, and should be a hoot with a stronger engine as the project continues to evolve.

Back to the project at hand: Draw thru would not need a RR FPR, but the carbon seal is a must. Consider your location also- while I do not have direct experience on this, I understand the draw thru systems can be prone to iceing and other issues in temps below 40-50 degrees or so. Read up on what Bell has to say on this. I considered a draw thru as well, but thought it to be a step backward from the CIS, and 2 steps back from the SDS, however depending on the budget, and intended use of the car, draw thru could be the way to go for this build. For me, driving to events in the early spring in 30 degree temps, draw thru was not an option, but the bug guys have been doing it for a while and making it work fine.

[turnaround89]

Frigid temps are normal here in rockford, we had a balmy -10 degrees F today.

the car isn't ever going to be driven in the cold. Mainly during the summer on the nice days. I don't want to ruin the work i put into fixing the hell hole by having it rust again, same with the longs. All that hard work gone because of salt, snow, rain, and ice.

This is mainly a play car. No other reason to own it other to enjoy driving a Porsche and having fun building the car. Also, 914's aren't common in rockford, thats a bonus as well. Won't be a daily driver, but also won't be a show car. The car won't be perfect, but good enough to where i can drive it and park it(if i ever actually want to park it, driving it is way more fun than looking at it) and not worry about it.

Hope that explains what i will do with the car.

SOT: God what i wouldn't give for 30 degrees F right now in rockford.

[andys]

Back to the project at hand: Draw thru would not need a RR FPR, but the carbon seal is a must. Consider your location also- while I do not have direct experience on this, I understand the draw they systems can be prone to iceing and other issues in temps below 40-50 degrees or so. Read up on what Bell has to say on this.................

Actually, it doesn't need to even get that cold to start icing, but it was never really a problem in SoCal. However one way we solved the issue (on air cooled applications) was by circulating engine oil around the base of the carb, though only with incidental contact so as to simply add some small amount of warmth, not a lot of heat. Many times the turbo and carb were mounted far from the intake and a water heated carb manifold (on water cooled cars) helped to bring back some of the lost throttle response. The '63 Olds Jetfire, and the '63-'65 Corvair Corsa both used draw-through systems. I only ever witnessed the Corvair develop some small amount of icing, but only after some long hard runs. The Olds used a water heated impeller housing.

Andys

[turnaround89]

After looking over some more pictures of setups, backyard ones and very well designed ones. And thought of an issue with these two setups
(IMG:http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o279/66Looker/PC270025.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.smbaker.com/rail/turbovw800.jpg)

Ive understood that the single carb setup on a 914 has its issues with throttle response because the intake runners are so long. I experienced this when i had a single progressive on my 914. The issue i have is that with a turbo setup your putting the carb even further away from intake manifold(the carb doesn't even sit on the manifolds anymore with a turbo), won't that make throttle response worse? These two draw-through carb setups have the carb a good ways away from the heads. Wouldn't starting the car be an issue as well, the fuel would have to travel through the turbo past the turbine, then through the intake, and then into the chamber? Will this problem go away with a better carb or does this have to do with the carbs ability to move air and fuel?

[andys]

Did you try these forums and sites? The JY Turbo forum is full of info, and someone there may be able to help you with the whole seal retrofit issue.

http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/index.php?board=15.0

http://www.dune-buggy.com/turbo/turbo.htm

As long as you don't confuse throttle response with turbo lag, you'll be ok. Ironically, I've found that the throttle response goes somewhat un-noticed even with the long runners after you drive it a while. Cold start and cold run can be a challenge at times.

Andys

[rusty914]

After looking over some more pictures of setups, backyard ones and very well designed ones. And thought of an issue with these two setups
(IMG:http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o279/66Looker/PC270025.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.smbaker.com/rail/turbovw800.jpg)

Ive understood that the single carb setup on a 914 has its issues with throttle response because the intake runners are so long. I experienced this when i had a single progressive on my 914. The issue i have is that with a turbo setup your putting the carb even further away from intake manifold(the carb doesn't even sit on the manifolds anymore with a turbo), won't that make throttle response worse? These two draw-through carb setups have the carb a good ways away from the heads. Wouldn't starting the car be an issue as well, the fuel would have to travel through the turbo past the turbine, then through the intake, and then into the chamber? Will this problem go away with a better carb or does this have to do with the carbs ability to move air and fuel?

All these pictures are making me crave a dune buggy again..........my wife would kill me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif)

[turnaround89]

Aren't they beautiful.

Ive heard of turbo lag, but my throttle response was horrible with a single carb. Taking corners and trying to gun it out, the car would almost die, and then go. It would take a second to actually have the again get going. Or to just put the pedal to the floor, it would do the same thing, however, if you ease on the gas, the prblem wasnt there it only happened when you got on the throttle. I see a lot of side draft carb setups with only one carb, so it must work, i guess.

Thanks for the forum, links, ill have more reading to do.

[rusty914]

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...mp;hl=kennewick

Another very useful thread. I like the simplicity of the exhaust system.

[rusty914]

Excellence article

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1056140562042144787aygnQj

[turnaround89]

A little update and change of ideas, im finally set on the way i want to build the setup.

So i finally purchased a turbo for my setup. I am planning on saving up for the msd ignition timing module since i will need to retard the timing to some degree. I still need to purchase a wastegate, the piping to make the exhaust, and the oil lines that go to and from the turbo. The msd module is the most expensive piece of equipment that will be purchased in this setup, besides the turbo.

I am redesigning my originally plan of draw-through to blow-through. It may be more difficult with carbs, but after doing a S$#% ton of reading in Maximum Boost, ill go blow-through. Still only want to run about 7 to 8 psi, this may be a low boost for a blow-through setup, but throttle response and starting the engine is much easier/better because the gas will have a shorter distance to travel.

The car will run dual carbs with an air box(this will take the spot of the air filter on top of the carb) on top to flow the air into each carb. Basically, it will look like an air filter but without the gauze element. all aluminum with a 2 inch pipe coming off to hook up the piping from the turbo to the air box.

Little info on the car as well
Needs new tires for my repro Fuchs
Little more bodywork/hell hole work
Paint
Turbo
Carpet
Done

Seems like a short list, but it'll get longer the further i keep diving into the car. Once the hell hole work is done(its freezing in the garage so little progress has been made), the engine will go back in to design the exhaust for the turbo. I might drive the car with the dual carbs for awhile to see what it is like, mainly, i just want to drive the car soon.

Thanks again everyone.

[914rrr]

Here's all the aircooled VW type 1 and type 4 turbo info you can handle:

http://www.shoptalkforums.net/viewforum.php?f=3

You should check out the book "Turbomania" by Bob Tomlinson (of CB Performance). It covers just about every type of carb set up imaginable and some early aftermarket FI systems. It actually has some (very dated) turbo 914 content.