RANT: Electric Conversions, Not what you think...... Options

[r_towle]

Until battery technology makes some serious strides I think an electric conversion is a waste of time and money. The only batteries worth using are priced higher than the national debt. Lead acid batteries are heavy, short duration, and cause more polution to manufacture and dispose of than all the gas you could burn for the next two years. (the life of the batteries) So IMHO electric is not green and should be taken on as a fun hobby and not a serious life style change.

A123Systems.
Check them out. Lithium.
The new pack costs about 10k....but its on its way...
You can buy that now...but I still feel the price is to high.

There are several cool things being done right now.
First and foremost....a 15 minute full charge is the goal, and some companies have built it.. This gets you to a gas station or a recharge station to refuel...that will be cool.
Second..we need to get up to 300 miles per charge...that is also happening..
This part is more about weight and peoples perception about how big and heavy a car really needs to be. This is more social in the US then it is technology.

At this point if we threw all the SUV's out and Pickup trucks that people drive to work...made everyone buy a car that weighs in at 2000lbs or less...then we would be looking at 75 mpg right now with current technology in normal gas powered cars....

For all the people that state "I will never get rid of my SUV/Truck" well, you will keep paying more and more penalties to drive it until it hurts so much in your wallet that you finally move into a fuel efficient car.
We need to make it hurt in this country...its the only way to make change happen.
Look what happened when gas was $4.00 per gallon...


My personal opinion is there will be two emerging systems that will happen and are happening in parallel.
Electric plug in will happen.
High efficiency Diesel will happen.

We need trucks to deliver our goods, so Diesel will get even more money thrown at it over the next ten years.
Electric plug in will be for the rest of us.

To your other point later on in the post...cold weather operation.
Hybrid electric/diesel will be the result.
Diesel works fine in sub zero temps when its properly engineered...so a hybrid will solve the cold issue...

Rich

[smontanaro]

I've been thinking about an electric conversion but have decided the 914 isn't optimal, at least not for my needs. On the one hand, 914s have two trunks, they are light, etc. I am, however, not in the land of eternal sun. I have been thinking a late-70s to mid-80s 911 conversion might make more sense. It's has a more rust resistant body, is a bit newer so non-ICE replacement bits will be a bit easier to find. The downsides are the lack of a second trunk and a bit more weight, but I think with newer battery technology both will become more tractable problems.

[rick 918-S]

Until battery technology makes some serious strides I think an electric conversion is a waste of time and money. The only batteries worth using are priced higher than the national debt. Lead acid batteries are heavy, short duration, and cause more polution to manufacture and dispose of than all the gas you could burn for the next two years. (the life of the batteries) So IMHO electric is not green and should be taken on as a fun hobby and not a serious life style change.

A123Systems.
Check them out. Lithium.
The new pack costs about 10k....but its on its way...
You can buy that now...but I still feel the price is to high.

There are several cool things being done right now.
First and foremost....a 15 minute full charge is the goal, and some companies have built it.. This gets you to a gas station or a recharge station to refuel...that will be cool.
Second..we need to get up to 300 miles per charge...that is also happening..
This part is more about weight and peoples perception about how big and heavy a car really needs to be. This is more social in the US then it is technology.

At this point if we threw all the SUV's out and Pickup trucks that people drive to work...made everyone buy a car that weighs in at 2000lbs or less...then we would be looking at 75 mpg right now with current technology in normal gas powered cars....

For all the people that state "I will never get rid of my SUV/Truck" well, you will keep paying more and more penalties to drive it until it hurts so much in your wallet that you finally move into a fuel efficient car.
We need to make it hurt in this country...its the only way to make change happen.
Look what happened when gas was $4.00 per gallon...


My personal opinion is there will be two emerging systems that will happen and are happening in parallel.
Electric plug in will happen.
High efficiency Diesel will happen.

We need trucks to deliver our goods, so Diesel will get even more money thrown at it over the next ten years.
Electric plug in will be for the rest of us.

To your other point later on in the post...cold weather operation.
Hybrid electric/diesel will be the result.
Diesel works fine in sub zero temps when its properly engineered...so a hybrid will solve the cold issue...

Rich

All good points. But lets move into the inner city and small rural communities with limited income and tell them they need to buy a $80,000.00 electric car they can't fit their family in. And if you don't were going to bankrupt you. So much for freedom of choice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Ya I know, that's a little extreme. I'm all for a better way. But there's alot of smoke and mirrors sales going on out there now. The next wave of tecnological advances won't be doled out to Jon Q. Public without a heavy price tag. Sometimes reality is sobering. At least reality as I see it.

[creeg123]

All good points. But lets move into the inner city and small rural communities with limited income and tell them they need to buy a $80,000.00 electric car they can't fit their family in. And if you don't were going to bankrupt you. So much for freedom of choice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Ya I know, that's a little extreme. I'm all for a better way. But there's alot of smoke and mirrors sales going on out there now. The next wave of tecnological advances won't be doled out to Jon Q. Public without a heavy price tag. Sometimes reality is sobering. At least reality as I see it.

Not necessarily. Yes, Tesla did make a $100K EV sports car (and its fast!). They are working on a sedan that is hopefully going to be in the $30-40K range next. And will be made in USA. Since the big 3 kept their heads in the sand for the last 20 years and only starting on EVs recently, the technology is waaaaaaay behind where it should be. Give it 5-10 years of serious research and advancement (especially in battery technology), and we should have affordable EVs for at least mid-range dollars. Then, the low-end affordable cars shoud hopefully follow after that.

[So.Cal.914]

So the premise of using only pre-76 vehicles for electrical modification just doesn't hold water...

It does unless some idiot told them it's modified.

Sure, you can lie, cheat and steal. It still doesn't make it legal. You could re-badge a 76 as a 75 and get around the legal requirements too (We've all seen the thread where a certain Atlanta reseller offered to sell the required items to do just that). It doesn't make it right and I wouldn't want to have to explain to the police if I got caught...

Seemingly, if you were in an accident or some other type of event where a police officer inspected the vehicle and found a V8 where a four-cylinder 2.0L engine were expected, I would assume there would be some splaining to do...

I was only assuming that this question was being asked with integrity as to legal requirements. If this thread is based upon the premise that we all misrepresent our vehicles, then the 1976 issue still doesn't hold water.

Eric (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Nothing illegal on your car? Never? No header? Never owned a modified car? Modifing an engine can hardly compare to rebadging a car illegally. Legally as I understand it you can not change any equipment on your street car. Done any of that? If not I am sorry for you, you have missed out on a lot of fun. If so quit acting so "Holier than thou".

[r_towle]

Until battery technology makes some serious strides I think an electric conversion is a waste of time and money. The only batteries worth using are priced higher than the national debt. Lead acid batteries are heavy, short duration, and cause more polution to manufacture and dispose of than all the gas you could burn for the next two years. (the life of the batteries) So IMHO electric is not green and should be taken on as a fun hobby and not a serious life style change.

A123Systems.
Check them out. Lithium.
The new pack costs about 10k....but its on its way...
You can buy that now...but I still feel the price is to high.

There are several cool things being done right now.
First and foremost....a 15 minute full charge is the goal, and some companies have built it.. This gets you to a gas station or a recharge station to refuel...that will be cool.
Second..we need to get up to 300 miles per charge...that is also happening..
This part is more about weight and peoples perception about how big and heavy a car really needs to be. This is more social in the US then it is technology.

At this point if we threw all the SUV's out and Pickup trucks that people drive to work...made everyone buy a car that weighs in at 2000lbs or less...then we would be looking at 75 mpg right now with current technology in normal gas powered cars....

For all the people that state "I will never get rid of my SUV/Truck" well, you will keep paying more and more penalties to drive it until it hurts so much in your wallet that you finally move into a fuel efficient car.
We need to make it hurt in this country...its the only way to make change happen.
Look what happened when gas was $4.00 per gallon...


My personal opinion is there will be two emerging systems that will happen and are happening in parallel.
Electric plug in will happen.
High efficiency Diesel will happen.

We need trucks to deliver our goods, so Diesel will get even more money thrown at it over the next ten years.
Electric plug in will be for the rest of us.

To your other point later on in the post...cold weather operation.
Hybrid electric/diesel will be the result.
Diesel works fine in sub zero temps when its properly engineered...so a hybrid will solve the cold issue...

Rich

All good points. But lets move into the inner city and small rural communities with limited income and tell them they need to buy a $80,000.00 electric car they can't fit their family in. And if you don't were going to bankrupt you. So much for freedom of choice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Ya I know, that's a little extreme. I'm all for a better way. But there's alot of smoke and mirrors sales going on out there now. The next wave of tecnological advances won't be doled out to Jon Q. Public without a heavy price tag. Sometimes reality is sobering. At least reality as I see it.

Couple of replies.
The price point will come down to a competitive price. That will be either with Gov subsidies and or market competition..its just gonna happen.
Only when JohnQ can make a choice dollar for dollar will this work.
At that point, penalties will be appropriate.
Penalties already exist...look at any car built after 1976 in CA....wanna keep it, fix it. Period.
So, same logic will apply. Wanna drive a big Escalade, no problem, we support your freedom to do that. Pay this tax for the priveledge and go on your merry way to the gas station.
Maybe the tax will just be more fuel tax...that would do it.

We need to fix this issue. You may not see it nor do I but please take a look at the sunset pictures in LA....there is a criminal amount of smog there...its harming peoples long term health.
We cant keep growing at the rate we are growing without addressing the need to change our consumptive and pollutant behaviour.

It wont be a federal level thing..it will be state by state. Something YOU can control with your vote.

Rich

[PeeGreen 914]

So where is all this extra electicity going to come from to charge these cars every night? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[YksKrad]

So where is all this extra electicity going to come from to charge these cars every night? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

They'll just have to run the peak hour plants around the clock.

[L8KTAHO]

I own a contractor company and need fully loaded work trucks everyday. I have a sister in law who has 5 kids, and needs a huge suv(suburban) to bus them around in. I hate big suv's too, what to do. My entire town(Reno) 400k pop, owns at least "one" truck. This is a mtn. town with lots of snow. Will the electric cars/trucks get towns like mine/colorado/utah/california around in all this snow? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[ericread]

Nothing illegal on your car? Never? No header? Never owned a modified car? Modifing an engine can hardly compair to rebadging a car illegally. Legally as I understand it you can not change any equipment on your street car. Done any of that? If not I am sorry for you, you have missed out on a lot of fun. If so quit acting so "Holier than thou".

"Holier than thou" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

This, from a guy who wants to ban any modifications to a pre-1976 914 unless it's his modifications!

I hope you see how ridiculous that is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol3.gif)

All I am trying to point out is that the premise of the 1976 914 being the only car that should be modified to be an electrical vehicle while any pre-1976 914 should be allowed to be modified with a V8 is a silly premise.

And using the California law which allows stock 1975 and older cars to be emission test exempt as a support to your premise is simply bogus.

Eric Read (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[So.Cal.914]

Nothing illegal on your car? Never? No header? Never owned a modified car? Modifing an engine can hardly compair to rebadging a car illegally. Legally as I understand it you can not change any equipment on your street car. Done any of that? If not I am sorry for you, you have missed out on a lot of fun. If so quit acting so "Holier than thou".

"Holier than thou" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

This, from a guy who wants to ban any modifications to a pre-1976 914 unless it's his modifications!

I hope you see how ridiculous that is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol3.gif)

All I am trying to point out is that the premise of the 1976 914 being the only car that should be modified to be an electrical vehicle while any pre-1976 914 should be allowed to be modified with a V8 is a silly premise.

And using the California law which allows stock 1975 and older cars to be emission test exempt as a support to your premise is simply bogus.

Eric Read (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Well genius those were not my comments, Kapt Kaos wrote this thread. I just thought you were being an asshole and you have yet to disappoint. There are a lot of people here that do not smog their 914's. And a fair chunk of those people have, in one way or another have modified their cars. The ones that do modify their cars wouldn't touch a 76, it has to be smogged. Which would make the 76 the perfect candidate for an electric conversion. No smog.

[Aaron Cox]

Joe (kapt kalorie)

You got more important things to worry about......













Like 3 weddings to pay for!

[r_towle]

So where is all this extra electicity going to come from to charge these cars every night? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Solar, wind, tidal.
All work, all are being implemented in large scale outside the US.

Largest producer of solar Electric on earth....Saudi Arabia.
We also have deserts...lets use them.

Wind...see Picketts plan...it makes sense.
UK, largest wind farm in the world...no one can see it from land.

Tidal...see UK, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Netherlands...huge tidal turbines generating major amounts of Electricity.

OR
We could build more coal plants to keep the existing rich businessmen wealthy..
Or, we could build more nuclear plants and give the waste storage issue to our grandchildren.

We need more power plants...that is a fact.
Why build crappy old technology coal plants??? I dont get that.

Why build nuclear plants with no disposal method...its the NIMBY (Not in My back Yard) principle..hell, we cant transport nuclear waste on the highway or across state lines. In some states it is not allowed in the state at all.
How does Nuclear make sense??

Even with our existing electrical power plants, those can be made alot cleaner if they are forced to do so. Its money...

Instead of regulation...offer us ALL, the whole country a choice of where to buy power...buy green, renewable power or buy coal power..
What would you buy if you had a choice and the price was the same?
It happens in my state. We buy 100% renewable power by choice.

It is a choice.
For the people who need an SUV...we need to ask for a greener solution.
For 50Billion dollars of tax money and more to follow dont you think we should ask GM, Chrysler and Ford to make something greener...
If not, lets not give them that money and give it to a car company that WILL make greener cars..

Larger trucks need diesel/hybrid...or natural gas (I dont buy that part of Picketts plan)

RIch

[smontanaro]

This is a mtn. town with lots of snow. Will the electric cars/trucks get towns like mine/colorado/utah/california around in all this snow? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Not immediately, but someday, maybe? One thing to understand is that a switch from gas to electric is not likely to ever be 100%, certainly not in the next couple decades, but if lots of people who can drive electric (or take public transit or telecommute or carpool or ...) do, then there will be that much more oil left for people who have no other viable option.

[YksKrad]

Why build nuclear plants with no disposal method...its the NIMBY (Not in My back Yard) principle..hell, we cant transport nuclear waste on the highway or across state lines. In some states it is not allowed in the state at all.
How does Nuclear make sense??

RIch

I agree and disagree... Personally I'd rather have Nuclear than coal power, but I think something needs to be done with the waste materials. Find a method of removing the spent isotopes and re-refining it for use in reactors. If they are still radioactive then there is still energy to be had there. And I like the idea of the waste being contained. I'd rather it be buried in the desert somewhere with 13 legged scorpions running around rather than a coal plant spewing toxic gasses into the air.

Personally the fear of the transporting it cracks me up. Once every couple years they would take a nuclear flask on the railroad behind my house. And every time a bunch of scared old people sat in lawn chairs with Geiger counters to 'check' them as they passed. Has anyone seen the testing those flasks underwent. They slammed into them with train above operating speeds and only dented 'em. youtube it, the wrecks are awesome!

I dunno, that's my $0.02 for what it's worth. (Likely less than two pennies)

Granted I've grown up scared of the threat of skin cancer due to the release CFCs from spray deodorant rather than nuclear winter.

[ericread]

Well genius those were not my comments, Kapt Kaos wrote this thread. I just thought you were being an asshole and you have yet to disappoint. There are a lot of people here that do not smog their 914's. And a fair chunk of those people have, in one way or another have modified their cars. The ones that do modify their cars wouldn't touch a 76, it has to be smogged. Which would make the 76 the perfect candidate for an electric conversion. No smog.

I had to think about your reply for a few minutes...

I have no problem with people who modify their 914s, either to bigger engines or to electric cars.

The premise of this thread was to limit the type of conversion so that the bigger engine cars would have the 1975 and older bodies while the 1976 bodies could be used for electric conversions. The basis of this seperation was the California emission exemption rule.

My point of contention is as follows:
1. The California emission exemption does not support the transfer of bigger engines to the 1975 and older bodies.
2. The California emission exemption does apply to electric conversions.

So it becomes pretty clear that the initial premise of the argument is not valid.

There's no doubt someone can get away with DMV violations by ignoring the laws. But the premise was based upon using the California DMV law, not ignoring the DMV laws.

So a premise was presented, and I demonstrated that based on the premise, the argument was not valid.

You seem to be offering a different premise, based upon the idea that by ignoring DMV laws, it's easier to license modified pre-1976 914's. Therefore the pre-1976 914s should be left to the engine modification people. That's a premise which is much different than the original premise, and should stand or fail on it's own merit.

If this discussion makes me an Assho__, then so be it.

From now on you should address me by the following title: "Your Assholiness"

Eric (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol3.gif)

BTW: My car is stock with the following exception, I replaced the original air cleaner wth one from K&N, and I have the certification from K&N that demonstrates the State of California finds the replacement air filter setup acceptable in meeting emission requirements for the State of California. And just in case, I have kept the original air cleaner should I be mandated to replace it.

[Chris Pincetich]

BE THE CHANGE!

For those that wait until it is the "best decision" you will be content to be another sheep in the flock. Our country was founded by rebel risk takers and I hope I some day save enough $$$ to do an EV 914!

Right now, I'd rather keep the 914 as budget cafe racer and do an EV mini-pickup with batteries in the bed = simple fab, cheap, easy, done!

If you are the type of guy who will stop in Walmart and tell a woman how to raise her kids, then go ahead and say ONLY 1976 914s for EVs....if your that type it fits. Otherwise, if it's your car, you can do what you please to it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Unmolested stock 914s are getting more unique every day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[KaptKaos]

Joe (kapt kalorie)

You got more important things to worry about......

Like 3 weddings to pay for!

And you have 1 to plan for smart ass! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)



Geez - sorry for all of the drama. Ask a simple question..... well, maybe not so simple.

Anyways, I will defer to my silvery tongued (and silvery haired) friend Elliot, where he politely asked people looking for EV conversions to try and use '76 chassis cars.

[TimK]

Hi All,

Glad to see the excellent discussion on 914 EV conversions. I've had my 914 EV for two years now and have really enjoyed it. The car uses older lead-acid technology and only has a 50 mile range. The performance is mediocre compared to the original. After fixing everything up and getting a new transmission, the total cost for everything was about $24,000.

It may seem like this was just a waste of time. On a more positive note, there is very little maintenance, no noise, and absolutely no emissions. Bicycles love it. I personally did the conversion because I wanted a cool car and be "green" at the same time. It was really an emotional decision and not a practical one.

After two years of hard driving and commuting, I'm probably going to sell the car since I just converted a Honda Civic to an EV that's far more practical and cost much less to convert (it has three times the acceleration too!).

You can see more at the following:
914 EV conversion blog
EVAlbum page for 914EV

The Civic conversion is off topic, but here's a link anyway for those who are interested.
Civic conversion blog

If you're seriously considering an EV conversion of a 914 and want some detailed answers, feel free to PM me, or join the 914EV GoogleGroup and start asking questions.

Cheers,
TimK

[Chris Pincetich]

BE THE CHANGE!

For those that wait until it is the "best decision" you will be content to be another sheep in the flock. Our country was founded by rebel risk takers and I hope I some day save enough $$$ to do an EV 914!

Right now, I'd rather keep the 914 as budget cafe racer and do an EV mini-pickup with batteries in the bed = simple fab, cheap, easy, done!

If you are the type of guy who will stop in Walmart and tell a woman how to raise her kids, then go ahead and say ONLY 1976 914s for EVs....if your that type it fits. Otherwise, if it's your car, you can do what you please to it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Unmolested stock 914s are getting more unique every day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)