RANT: Electric Conversions, Not what you think...... Options

[plymouth37]

If you are building an electric 914 it's gotta be as light as is possible, 76's are too heavy, go for a 70 or 71. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

[sgomes]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif)

I'm another converter as some of you know. Why would you convert a 914 and put a chevy engine in it? Because it's fast? NOT. I can think of dozens of cars that would destroy such a conversion in a drag race or autocross. Because economical? HUH? Because....because...because....

I'll tell you why. Because it's unique, fun and something to do with the car you love. Converting a 914 to electric isn't going to save the world or wipe out a hundred years of pollution. If you want to argue about whether or not it is less polluting than the original car bring it on. You don't want to have that argument and it misses the point anyway.

The point is I love my electric 914. It was easy to convert. It is a blast to drive. It is a major conversation starter where ever I go.

As for the original premise of this thread I would say you should encourage converters to use '76 models to leave more of the older models available for the other gear-heads to convert. The electric converters will tell you that the '76 is heavier than the older models but I have no data to back that up. Mine is a '73 and had a destroyed engine and transmission.

Just my 2cents

[LarryR]

So where is all this extra electicity going to come from to charge these cars every night? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

They'll just have to run the peak hour plants around the clock.

I have done lots of research into EV conversions (It has been probably 2 years ago). I came to the conclusion back then that in order to do it the way I would want with the power and range I would want it would cost somewhere around 50K. So I just deemed it not an option. I wanted Telsa performance....

I think doing it to a 914 is kind of a mute point considering that the 914 must be one of the all time most converted cars on the planet. (chevy v8's, suby, tdi, I think I remember someone even putting a geo engine in one) I remember thinking that I would probably do a boxster if I ever converted a car to electric. This is for reasons stated before... more abundant, rust resistance, etc...

However, for now the wife and I both drive 40 mpg clean diesels. The new jetta TDI is only 22K and delivers pretty awesome economy. I figure we do need to make the shift to energy independence for a multitude of reasons ... global warming, smog, economy of the nation, on and on....

No one technology will address everyone's needs so I say bring on the diesels, hybrids, EV's etc... Yes I still have my jeep for towing and hauling.... However, I now drive it less than 500 miles a year.....

I have strayed a bit from the initial premise of this thread so I will go ahead and stop here....

[jrmole]

Hi all,

I just got home from after dropping off my son at school - in my 1975 914 EV. I was actually moved to convert the car because I used to drive a Honda EV+ (a lesser known late-90's EV than the GM EV1). It was a great car, but after 4.5 years Honda cancelled the lease and crushed the car. I loved that car and would still be driving it if Honda had let me keep leasing it.

My original plan was to convert an early BMW Z3 - long front trunk with a heavy engine. The alternative was a 914 where I could buy a kit with most of the parts. I decided not to do the Z3 because 1) I would need to design my own battery boxes and 2) I would need to hack into the computer if I wanted to retain the anti-lock brakes, airbags, etc. After finishing the 914, none of these things scare me anymore.

Getting back to the original issue (using '76s for EV conversions). I understand the writer's point. I choose a '75 because it was the body I could find that had a crappy engine and was local. I've tried to make sure that the parts I pull get recycled into the 914 community - often giving away smaller items rather than trashing them. Honestly, if I could have found a 76, I would have used it. There were only two for sale around me during the few months I looked. One was completely restore - I couldn't tear that one apart. The other was a bucket of rust in the shape of a car. Oh well.

I went with a small AC motor. It is very efficient and expect I will have a 60ish mile range with golf cart batteries once I work out all the kinks in the battery monitoring system - keeping my drives under 30 miles until then. When these batteries die, I will probably bite the bullet and invest in lithium-ion (hope the price really starts dropping). That will drop the weight of the car back down to near stock and increase my range to about 100 miles. The downside of the little AC motor is that I don't have the torque I would like in a sports car. It does ok on flat ground (not far off the stock performance), but the 1,000 pounds of lead makes it struggle on the very steep hills near my house. ANother reason to get Lithium if I can afford it for the next battery pack.

I enjoy driving it and expect to keep tinkering with it for years. Is it practical? Sort of. I work 5 miles from home, so it will easily be my commuter car. I can use it for quick runs to the hardware store on the weekend (as long as what I am buying can fit in the passenger seat). Could it be my only car? No. Of course, a two seater is almost never a practical car, so I don't think my EV should have to meet that standard.

Finally, I power my car with part of the 4,000 Watts of solar panels on my roof. During the day, my meter spins backwards as I sell power to the electric company. At night, I buy it back (at an off-peak discount!) to charge the car. My panels make enough excess power to put 10,000 miles/year on the 914 and still not have to write a check for my electricity. Given that I was only driving the car that the 914 is "replacing" about 6,000 miles a year, this should be fine. I could add a plug-in hybrid (if they ever really come to market) and still not spend money on power.

Enjoy your cars! I do mine.

[Goge]

Am I safe from ridicule on this board, since I chose a BMW 2002 to convert? Probably not... but it's a '76 to boot (couldn't get it to pass emissions here in Oregon when it still had an ICE). I considered (briefly) converting my 914 but couldn't convince myself to go there.

I have alot of work left to do on the 2002, all I am hoping is that it will take me 15 miles to work, charge all day, and get me back home at night. Lead-acid is my only option right now.

Why am I converting it? I've always been an early adopter and I think electric is the way to go for the future. I'd like to be able to say I had one before GM actually sold any! I'm not a tree-hugger, but I am an engineer and (of course since I'm on this forum) cars are a big hobby of mine. I think I'm really doing it just for the fun of it.

-TH

[Mark Henry]

I've been watching this and although I applaud the green efforts I believe the money would be better spent on other areas. Example for the price I'd install a ground source heat pump in my house first.

EV is great but not yet practical for us in the northern states and Canada.

[PThompson509]

Hmm, well, if I *could* have found a '76 I would have converted it, but as you said, it is rare. However, I DID find a '75 that had a really sad engine and transmission (and of course, the usual rust). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Personally, I DON'T think it's a bad thing for people to know that '76 or later are good years for conversion. However, this information needs to make it out into the general public (rather than just the 914 world/club/whatever page). Most of the time, you have people like me (former 928, current 911) trying to find a good chassis to use. I asked the local experts for help, and concentrated on finding a relatively rust-free chassis.

Now as for the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) regarding batteries:
Lead-acid Batteries are almost completely recyclable, and actually generate less greenhouse gas than your gastank to manufacture. They are good for 3-5 years (in moderate climates, maybe less in the bloody cold climates, dunno, I live in San Diego and have to worry about roasting to death in summer). Yeah, they are heavy, but I also have upgraded the suspension to deal with that.

Electricity? I have solar panels. <soapbox> But ponder this - I can get electricity from just about ANY source - gas, coal, nuclear, solar, etc. Where can you get gasoline from? ONLY oil. </soapbox>

So, If you want to ask people to not use earlier versions, thats cool. Talk to the people that make the kits and ask them to mention that. Electro Automotive makes a good kit for the 914, and I'm sure that someone at Camp 914 also knows.

[EDIT] on second thought, don't deal with Electro Auto. They are a company that obviously hates their customers and doesn't deliver. Don't touch them or any of their product.

Cheers!
Peter

[sEEkEr]

Excellent thread and some great mind on mind friction here...

I too have been researching elecric....Electro Automotive kit with 100 mph and 100 hr cycles would run about 15K today....

Not sure if I want to be cool for 15K right now..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[charliew]

I am interested and will one day take the jump but the battery situation will have to improve. The deal is right now to make your own diesel and use 90's diesels to run 130.00 diesel.

To make the 914 guys feel a little better check out the toyota powered 67 camaro here. www.evsmotors.com.

[jtg]

My 2 cents:



147 mile range, 106 mph top speed, 0 to 60 in less that 10 sec, expected life of batteries = 500,000 miles.

That's what I feel you can do now and have a home made electric 914. Practical, easy, relatively inexpensive. A great way to take a car that would have probably gone to the junk yard and give it another 30 years or so.

Info on mine: http://evalbum.com/3439


It's just too fun to drive,

Jim

[914werke]

So how much of the 20K were the batteries?

[jimtab]

Personally I am not a fan of the hybrids as they exist now, I think clean diesel is more effective until such time as battery technology gets better, I would be more in favor of plug-in electric cars if the energy came from alternative sources(solar, etc.) but using "the grid"just moves the pollution away from your house to wherever the plant is located, not really a solution IMHO. I say if you like to convert cars and you own the car, do what you will and live with the results. I've seen good conversions, but I've seen terrible ones as well.....not my thing, I owned a 6-conversion and it was great but it led me to the "dark side".....

[flipb]

I question the assumption that 914 EV's are necessarily acquired with the intention of converting.

If the engine in my '74 2.0 crapped out (and there's a possibility it may have), I'd be faced with the following choices:

• Engine rebuild
• Find/buy a replacement TIV
• Find/buy a Porsche 6
• Convert to EV

Sure, there are other options (Suby, SBC, etc.) but the ones above are the ones that I would personally consider.

The upside of EV for me - no engine maintenance, dependability (how often does your TV refuse to start?), cheap to operate, and most important: It would drastically cut both the cost and time of my daily commute. I could drive it daily, take the HOV lane, and get to work in 1/2 the time. I'd certainly put a lot more miles on my 914 if it were running on volts.

[r_towle]

I bought a Prius...thing is cool and gets 50 mpg easy.
If you drive it just so, it gets 99 mpg.

Rich

[Root_Werks]

Until battery technology makes some serious strides I think an electric conversion is a waste of time and money. The only batteries worth using are priced higher than the national debt. Lead acid batteries are heavy, short duration, and cause more polution to manufacture and dispose of than all the gas you could burn for the next two years. (the life of the batteries) So IMHO electric is not green and should be taken on as a fun hobby and not a serious life style change.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Rick hit the nail on the head. The motors and controls are easily there, but batteries for the layman folks like us are not.

My 914 is close to 40mpg, very close and pretty much all stock. It would take hundreds of thousands of useful miles from batteries before I'd ever see a break even from a conversion.

[PThompson509]

Until battery technology makes some serious strides I think an electric conversion is a waste of time and money. The only batteries worth using are priced higher than the national debt. Lead acid batteries are heavy, short duration, and cause more polution to manufacture and dispose of than all the gas you could burn for the next two years. (the life of the batteries) So IMHO electric is not green and should be taken on as a fun hobby and not a serious life style change.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Rick hit the nail on the head. The motors and controls are easily there, but batteries for the layman folks like us are not.

My 914 is close to 40mpg, very close and pretty much all stock. It would take hundreds of thousands of useful miles from batteries before I'd ever see a break even from a conversion.

All that is probably true for your car. <rant>How long do you think will take when gas reaches $5/gal? Or $6/gal? Those prices are coming. </rant>

That being said, you can get a nice battery pack for $8k (roughly) and a really nice motor (80kw) for $6.6k. When I started my conversion, I was guessing about $20k to $25k for parts. Now the price is from $15k to $20K, and will continue to drop.

Cheers,
Peter

[flipb]

Question for those who've done it: Are there any Federal tax incentives for converting a 914 to fully electric?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[jtg]

Here's some info that I think is true:

There's a federal tax incentive for conversions. About 10% credit on parts bought if I remember correctly.


PThompson is right. About 9k for top of the line Batteries, 2K for a motor (DC), 2k for a controller, 1-2K for a charger, 1K for a motor-transmission adapter plate. rdauenhauer: I spent 9K for batteries 14 months ago, they came from China. The rest of the conversion parts were USA made.


The Prius is nice but it derives all it's energy from gasoline. Mine is all electric and gets charged from local power company. My state gets 75% of it's power from clean natural gas or nuclear. Clean diesel is good but still petroleum dependent.

I agree with jimtab, hybrids are not the complete solution. Why have an gas engine in an electric powered car if you don't have to? I charge mine up about twice a week if I drive it every day. For those that have two cars, one could very easily be a battery powered electric. My 914 was the perfect car for me to convert.

Jim

[IronHillRestorations]

I've always liked the idea of electric cars.

The heck with T Boone Pickens, if you want to solve the electric vehicle problem, take the internal combustion engines away from NASCAR and make them run electric. The battery problem would be solved in about two seasons.

As far as the premise of using only '76 model 914's? Maybe a good idea on paper, but it's hard enough to find a good chassis, let alone limiting it to one year model.

Once you buy the car, it's yours to do as you please, be it V8, Subi, Porsche 6, electric, or JACK STANDS!

[SteveL]

All this talk about electric cars saving the environment.
OK
Charge up that car.
Coal, Nuclear, Wind, Solar, Tidal.
Coal Electricity - look at the total impact of a mile driven, including charging hte car with a coal power plant. Bad idea.
Nuclear - see above, except think of waste disposal.
Wind, Solar, Tidal - this source is VERY expensive. Wind and solar are unreliable.
So, if you use them, your ability to drive is unreliable too. Also, Wind and Solar are NOT cost effective. It might seem like they are, but gov't subsidies (read tax dollars from everyone) is artificially losering the price. You are really paying a lot more for it, just some of it comes out of your paycheck directly.