RANT: Electric Conversions, Not what you think...... Options

[SteveL]

Question -
When you drive a gas car - 20 MPG, at $4.00 per gallon = $.02 per mile.
When you drive an all electric car, what is the cost per mile? I get a bill every month from the electric utility, so I know it is not free. What does it cost to charge an electric car per mile driven?
How much if you use purely renewable energy sources (wind, solar, tidal) UNSUBSIDIZED. Yes, you have to figure in how much you would be charged in taxes as well as on your direct bill.

Thanks

[brp986s]

I've always liked the idea of electric cars.

The heck with T Boone Pickens, if you want to solve the electric vehicle problem, take the internal combustion engines away from NASCAR and make them run electric. The battery problem would be solved in about two seasons.

There isn't a battery problem. The energy in the battery? That's the problem. Maybe Li-ion battery prices will come down some, but producing Li metal for a Li-ion is expensive not due to a technological issue, but the high energy required and that part won't going away.

Soon, I expect the subsidies will have to be yanked because the federal gov is broke and getting your neighbors to pay for your car isn't going to work. This will stack the odds against EVs even further.

[jrmole]

Question -
When you drive a gas car - 20 MPG, at $4.00 per gallon = $.02 per mile.
When you drive an all electric car, what is the cost per mile? I get a bill every month from the electric utility, so I know it is not free. What does it cost to charge an electric car per mile driven?
How much if you use purely renewable energy sources (wind, solar, tidal) UNSUBSIDIZED. Yes, you have to figure in how much you would be charged in taxes as well as on your direct bill.

Thanks

Actually, 20 MPG @ $4.00 = $0.20 per mile, not $0.02 per mile.

My electric 914 uses between 3 & 4 miles per kWh. I charge off-peak and pay about $0.07 per kWh (varies between winter and summer). So that works out to about 2 cents per mile. One tenth the cost of gasoline.

I have a few thousand Watts of solar panels on my roof. During the day, I sell the surplus to the power company (who turns around and sells it to my neighbors). At night, I buy the power back. The net production of my panels is enough to completely cover my house and about the first 15,000 miles I drive per year.

I installed the panels a couple thousand Watts every couple years as I could afford them. The first set (2001) have long since paid for themselves. The most recent (2010) will take another few years to pay for themselves. Without the tax breaks, it would have added a couple more years, but would still be worth it. Solar hot water pays back even faster.

The conversion of the 914 will take many, many years to pay for itself. But who buys a 914 to save money? Can't believe anyone on this list would make that mistake.

I am just happy that I can drive around without sending money to places that don't like the United States very much, without sending CO2 into the air and without worrying about price increases in either oil or electricity.

Happy driving.

[Eric_Shea]

I don't think you're figuring the cost of the batteries into your MPG or MPkW equation no? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

How often do you need to change out the batteries?

How many charges will they take before they're gone?

How are they recycled?

And no... I'm not trying to be an asshole about this, I'd really like to know.

I did a little research and I felt the only thing holding me back from doing an electric conversion on a 914 for my daughters would be the batteries and battery technology. I thought one would have to buy about $3 grand worth of batteries every year.

Have things gotten better? Changed?

The other thing was 900lbs of batteries??

I'm really digging the idea that these cars would be ideal for such a conversion but those are the things that held me back from further exploration after giving it a cursory once over.

[r_towle]

I was watching a discover channel program on batteries.
It happens to be the number 2 most recycled item on the planet.
Steel is number one btw.
They are broken down to the core elements and everything is recycled to make new batteries...

That takes one arguement off the table for me.

The issue I have with Lithium batteries is the core producer of the lithium is korea...so we will be trading one regional issue for another.

I do agree that these types of changes are monumental and almost as large as Gas versus horses back at the turn of the century.

We bought a prius because its a decent cheap car, and its 50% cheaper than a volvo to fill with gas...
Took my swedish wife out of her lifelong car brand and switched..
she loves the prius...loves the mpg, and loves the savings.

It would never have happened if it did not affect her wallet...her weekly gas budget.

We have a huge south facing barn and we are installing a fairly large grid of panels soon...140 feet by 40 feet to begin with.
That should support a few plug in hybrids as the years go on.

If and when I can build an elec car that will produce stunning speed, stunning acceleration, and go 200-300 miles between charges...I will do it.
Till then, IC hybrids as the next step...and a diesel hybrid Volvo is coming in two years...so we will switch back to volvo again.

Rich

[flipb]

Why does every discussion about electric cars devolve into "but the electricity comes from coal/nuclear/blah/blah/blah!"????

Do you realize that every gallon of gas you pump into your car subsidizes the Saudi royal family, among others?

This isn't necessarily about choosing a car based on minimal overall carbon footprint, or "feel good about yourself" or anything else. It's a personal choice, just like buying any collector car.

Maybe I think the technology is cool.
Maybe I'm ready to give up on oil changes, valve adjustments, drips in my driveway, etc.
Heck, maybe driving an EV gives me access to HOV lanes and free parking.

We all own cars that are impractical and weren't selected based on cost of ownership, environmental impact, or anything else that can be quantified in a spreadsheet. Why does everyone think EVs have different criteria?

[jrmole]

I don't think you're figuring the cost of the batteries into your MPG or MPkW equation no? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

True. But I wasn't figuring the costs of oil changes, air filters, spark plugs, eventual engine overhauls, etc. into the cost of the gas engine per mile either. Of course, these are probably less per mile than the battery pack...

How often do you need to change out the batteries?

I drove my 914 a couple thousand miles with no change in performance. Unfortunately, the e-brake failed one day and it rolled out of the driveway and hit a tree across the street (no engine braking from an electric motor). The batteries were damaged as well as minor body damage. It's in the shop now waiting for a new paint job.

Other conversions seems to get ~15,000 miles per battery pack (lead acid). At ~$2k per pack, that adds $0.13 cents per mile. Certainly more than than the electricity. And comes close to leveling the playing field with a gasoline car per mile.

How many charges will they take before they're gone?

That really depends on the batteries, the chargers and how deeply you discharge them each cycle. The manufacture's data is often useless. The 15,000 miles per pack is a better measure, I think.

How are they recycled?

Just like car batteries. Supposedly lead is one of the most recycled product on the planet. It is sooo much cheaper to get lead out of old batteries than out of the ground that almost any battery you buy will be mostly made from old batteries.

And no... I'm not trying to be an asshole about this, I'd really like to know.

Didn't come across as an asshole. I am glad to answer some questions.

I did a little research and I felt the only thing holding me back from doing an electric conversion on a 914 for my daughters would be the batteries and battery technology. I thought one would have to buy about $3 grand worth of batteries every year.

Have things gotten better? Changed?

The other thing was 900lbs of batteries??

Well, my pack was ~1,200 pounds. I had to beef up the suspension and added a full roll cage to help stiffen up the car. It handled great but struggled to get the weight up hills. As far as braking, my conversion had regenerative braking that would throw you against the seatbelt if you turned it up all the way - much better than the brakes on a stock 914.

Given my trouble with battery acid, and the dropping price of lithium batteries, I am going to switch to that when I get the car back from the shop. The pack and associated charging system will be about $10,000. This is down from almost $40,000 5 years ago (when I started on my conversion).

The lithiums are supposed to be good for ~150,000 miles, so that will drop the price of the batteries per mile to ~$0.07 or half what lead costs. I hope to get > 10 years on this pack without maintenance.

The new pack will drop ~850 pounds from the car and, since I am running at a higher voltage, give me more torque too. Looking forward to driving it.

I'm really digging the idea that these cars would be ideal for such a conversion but those are the things that held me back from further exploration after giving it a cursory once over.

This is no more a money saving project than doing a complete rebuild and swapping motors. If you want to drive cheap, buy a used mid-90's Honda Civic for a couple of grand. I used to own one that routinely gave me 45 MPG. Or buy an old motorcycle even cheaper and get even better mileage.

I am doing it because I think it is a fun project. Same reason I assume most 914 owners deal with the joys of a 40 year-old car. I just have a slightly different definition of fun than the people putting V8's into these cars.

Happy driving.

[Eric_Shea]

Cool info.

Now, lets get that battery pack down to say $5k and I'm on it. We could have it fit where the gas tank was and, at around 350lbs (was I reading that right... You're going to shave 850lbs off with the new battery) that would be amazing. I had a 350lb girlfriend once... 914 handled it well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Glass hoods, glass body panels. Weight savings on the motor. We might be able to get this pig to weigh in at stock numbers!

I think its a cool technology to follow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

[914Mike]

Cool info.

Now, lets get that battery pack down to say $5k and I'm on it. We could have it fit where the gas tank was and, at around 350lbs (was I reading that right... You're going to shave 850lbs off with the new battery) that would be amazing. I had a 350lb girlfriend once... 914 handled it well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Glass hoods, glass body panels. Weight savings on the motor. We might be able to get this pig to weigh in at stock numbers!

I think its a cool technology to follow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

My '74 has a glass bumper, it was easier to cut the charging port (hidden behind the front plate) than steel. I may swap out the lids when it's due for paint.

The price of batteries is driven by consumption. That's where Hybrids are helping, they consume a lot more batteries than would otherwise be used, and the cost gets lower the more sold.

One point:

Cold weather does not affect lithium as much as lead/acid, but those of you that drive in sub-zero temps probably already have a block heater to keep your ICE warm at night, lots of places up north have plugs outside stores that are free for shoppers. Same thing with batteries, just run the heater on high while charging to warm them up, and run it on low while driving to maintain the temps. Battery boxes are insulated...

I'm going with lead/acid for my first pack, to allow me to tweak the settings on the AC controller. When that set dies, I'll be looking at alternatives, which will be cheaper than they are today. Higher voltage will mean revamping all the settings, but I'll have done it before...

[smontanaro]

Coal Electricity - look at the total impact of a mile driven, including charging the car with a coal power plant. Bad idea.
...
Also, Wind and Solar are NOT cost effective. It might seem like they are, but gov't subsidies (read tax dollars from everyone) is artificially lowering the price. You are really paying a lot more for it, just some of it comes out of your paycheck directly.

A couple comments. Coal is bad, the worst. No doubt about it. Most states don't derive all their electricity from coal though.

I have no concrete evidence to prove my point, but I'm pretty sure we (the consumer) already subsidize the petroleum industry in many different ways. They just aren't as visible as those subsidies written as such by Congress. All those lobbyists for Big Oil must be doing something for their clients or they wouldn't stay in business.

[bernbomb914]

This is a great discussion but you have missed one product that is clean readly avalable and cheep and should be easy to convert. NATURAL GAS

[914Mike]

This is a great discussion but you have missed one product that is clean readly avalable and cheep and should be easy to convert. NATURAL GAS

Still, it's not renewable.

"There's only so much oil (or gas) in the ground".

Tower Of Power

I can get all the electricity I need for driving from my solar panels.

There you go, solar, it's nuclear power at a safe distance! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[orange914]

Great thread. Amusing the heat this has brought up! Ha Eric your assholiness... Funny... I've always had an interest in the EV thing. Let me just say I don't nessasarily go out of my way to run over kittens but I'm not drawn to this because of the green thing, just like the idea, especially using solar panels.

I just picked up an older setup off a dunebuggy. I've got an 81 diesel rabbit pickup I'm weighing using (smog exempt). So I guess I'm looking for input to guide me on the viability of building this up. Seems most of the cost runs with the batteries.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) jtq, thats one nice EV