Over Heating Starter, won't start after a commute Options

[swl]

I'd have to say stupid stories like these are what endear these crazy little cars to our hearts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

Endear the cars? Hell no! That story should endear the girlfriend. That kinda girl is rarer than a 916! I want one!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grouphug.gif)

Eric,
Absolutely - if it works and gets you on the road reliably then why not. Not all of us wrench wenches like klink. The good think about the relay is that it does not require a hack to the wiring. If a future owner wants to trace down the real problem in the future he just can yank out the relay - no harm no foul.

The key to your approach is your statement of 'due diligence'. There are conditions that can cause poor starting that might effect other things. As long as you have investigated them then there is no harm in putting in the relay.

If you have a problems with the ground strap or the battery terminals it will effect cranking and a host of other things.
If you have corrosion on the connectors to the relay board you could have host of other problems emerge as the corrosion gets worse.
If the traces are wearing out on your switch - well that will get obvious when it gets bad enough.

You can use a volt meter, with an assistants help, to check for some of these conditions easily without replacing parts. All of the below needs to be done with the car being cranked (or at least trying to be cranked)

1. measure the voltage across the battery terminals. That's your baseline. In theory that voltage should be present at the solenoid. Even in a new car it would not be there 100% but it would be close.
2. now read between the + battery post and the body. If it is lower than the baseline then there is probably an issue with the neg battery terminal or ground to the body.
3. now read between the + battery terminal and the block. Any additional drop would be attributable to the tranny to body strap. (oh I can see certain members of the forum having fun with that statement!)
4. Now measure from the starter wire to the block. additional drop = positive battery post.
5. yellow wire on the starter to block - additional drop = something on the trip to the ignition and then back to the battery. At this point it starts getting a little more difficult to do the checking. Also from this point you are looking for the voltage to start going up. The rest is fiddly - you may want to give up here.
6. pin 6 of the 12 pin on the relay board (leave it plugged in - slide the cover off and measure to the pin) to the block - voltage increase = that the wire to the solenoid, the connector on the solenoid
7. pin 1 of the 14 pin on the relay board - voltage increase = dirty connector on the 12 or 14 pin.

You can continue this on through the ignition switch and back to the battery.

[jaxdream]

SWL , that was a very good explanation of the circuit check , but as mentioned earlier , the distance of the voltage from the ign switch to the starter solenoid is usually the biggest obstacle . When I was younger , I worked on the older Silver Eagle , GMC buses for a custom coach comp out of Nashville,Tn. These things were from 40ft long to about 30 something long , voltage drop over the distances of the wiring on these things was horrible, that's why there were relays on certain systems , they also used 2 huge batteries to turn over the 8v71 detroits , plus run lighting , ac , and more depending on the add ons to the system.
Cleaning the electrical contacts will help tremenduosly , but you will still have the long distance voltage drop , the relay is a good solution for that , heck even a small lawnmower relay would be suffecent to overcome .

My $.02

Jaxdream

[Drums66]

1. new starter
2. new solenoid
3. hot start kit
4. clean all grounds & battery posts

I haven't had a starter problem
in many years! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)
P.S ,I hope I did'nt curse myself, LoL

[MBowman325]

While it was touched on, it wasn't stated directly as to why the relay may mask another underlying issue.

Something gets hot and then the car will not start.

This implies that an electrical component is heating up to the point of increased resistance. Wire will cool back down, but starter solenoids may "stick" (Refer to exhibits A and B, the 914 and a generic GM V8).

To overcome resistance, (1) the offending component should be replaced (solenoid), (2)environmental factors modified if possible (don't let it get hot), or (3) ensure that more current gets to it ( a)hot start relay b)new wires c)clean grounds).

You'll sometime see a GM with a Ford relay, which addresses generally 1 and 2, though sometimes guys will run bigger cables around for a hat trick.

In our cases, a relay (3) is cheap and appears to give enough of a boost to overcome any issues with the solenoid due to a reduced path to voltage (and less current drop). A replacement starter (1) also fixes it because you're then replacing a potentially 39 year old component with a new one. (Assuming that grounds are good and the cabling doesn't have any extreme voltage drops.

So with a "hot start" relay, you're adding another component (that might could fail, but is cheap) that should address your issue reliably enough until you want or need to spend the additional $80 or so (depending on how you do it in the first place) for a new starter.

As far as ease of installation, adding a relay shouldn't be a big deal. If you have an extra hand the starter is not difficult to install. (Seems like I had some problems in play trying to hang it and get bolts started - not hard, but reach was key)

[yellow914]

First: Thank you all for your help this site is incredible for advice, a ribbing or two and just plain fun

Second: I had a chance to climb under the car last night...and low and behold..there is already the Ford part bolted to the bottom of the car! No longer hooked up...but there! I guess I never noticed it as it was tucked away a bit...we'll see if it still works this weekend.

Thanks again.

[Tom]

Well, this issue sure comes up a lot. I know that when it starts happening to your car, there is no "easy" fix. When the car is new, the circuit works just fine. As the wires, connections, and electrical components age, the ability of them to carry current and work correctly starts to fail. The best way to fix this problem would be to replace those electrical components with new. We tend to try to get by as cheap as possible, so that will not be an option for most of us.
Her is a cheap fix that I used for a couple of years on a 70 that I had many years ago. It was still working when I sold the car and yes, I told the buyer what the circuit was for. I went down and bought an old "push to start" switch like the 49 Fords had on the dash. I drilled a hole large enough ( 1/2 inch or so) in the rear engine tin on the drivers side near the starter. Mounted the switch there with the push button side in the engine compartment. Hooked up a 14 ga. wire from the large solenoid terminal where the battery cable is to one side of the switch. the other side of the switch ( 14 ga wire again ) went to the other spade terminal where the yellow wire goes. Any time the car was too warm to start from the ignition switch, all I had to do was put it in neutral - key on - hand brake up - open engine lid - push starter button - engine starts - close engine lid.
I know it masks the true problem of too many contacts and connections in the starting circuit, but it does work, and it's not too expensive of a temp fix. Especially if the "hot no-start" problem happens to you only infrequently, and it beats the heck out of getting under the car to jump the connections.
Tom