Where is Ground Connection"B" ? Options

[Spoke]

I'd say buy a new relay or try one known to be good from a friend's car. That
will either solve the problem or eliminate the relay as a possibility. You could
also try tracing all the wires involved and look for shorts, cracks in the insulation,
bad connections, etc.

You could also try taking out all the fuses except #9 and see if the problem still
exists. If it still exists, the problem is in this circuit. If the problem goes away,
try adding fuses back one by one. When it comes back, then there must be
some interconnection in the circuits that is causing the problem. Having hard
information like this is very helpful in finding the problem.

I am no expert on 914 wiring, and this advice may not help, but I know from
engineering that you need to isolate the problem, and definitively rule things out
one by one. Often times the hardest bugs to track down were ones that people
thought "for sure" they had ruled out. Usually it turned out that they "assumed"
that something was good instead of "testing" it for sure. This caused them to
look at every other possibility except the one they "assumed" was ok.

I need to debug my blue car here soon and I am sure I will have similar
issues.

Good luck.

John

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Good stuff here.

I'm wondering about the relay too at this point.

silverteener has an extra flasher relay (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kenshapiro2002]

Took out all the fuses except #9. Everythiing was fine, so I started adding them back. The final result was that if I have all the fuses in except #8 and #11, all is quiet. When I add #11 or #8 all hell breaks loose again.

I'd say buy a new relay or try one known to be good from a friend's car. That
will either solve the problem or eliminate the relay as a possibility. You could
also try tracing all the wires involved and look for shorts, cracks in the insulation,
bad connections, etc.

You could also try taking out all the fuses except #9 and see if the problem still
exists. If it still exists, the problem is in this circuit. If the problem goes away,
try adding fuses back one by one. When it comes back, then there must be
some interconnection in the circuits that is causing the problem. Having hard
information like this is very helpful in finding the problem.

I am no expert on 914 wiring, and this advice may not help, but I know from
engineering that you need to isolate the problem, and definitively rule things out
one by one. Often times the hardest bugs to track down were ones that people
thought "for sure" they had ruled out. Usually it turned out that they "assumed"
that something was good instead of "testing" it for sure. This caused them to
look at every other possibility except the one they "assumed" was ok.

I need to debug my blue car here soon and I am sure I will have similar
issues.

Good luck.

John

[kenshapiro2002]

Also, if I leave all fuses out except #8, problem exists...leave all out except #11, problem exists.

[Spoke]

Took out all the fuses except #9. Everythiing was fine, so I started adding them back. The final result was that if I have all the fuses in except #8 and #11, all is quiet. When I add #11 or #8 all hell breaks loose again.

OK, just to clarify, you still have pins 49a and K disconnected? Keep them disconnected if you have found the issue still happens with them disconnected.

More clarification: When you added #11 with #8 removed, you also turned on the 4-way flasher?

With #11 in with #8 removed, is there a difference with 4-ways on and off?

[kenshapiro2002]

Just ordered a flasher relay with 1 day delivery...just so I can keep you guys up to date without too much lag time. Is it just me or does AA's inventory seldom match it's catalog (online one at that) as to brand, price, etc.? Yesterday I got a really quick, rude blowoff from their tech guy. I've only been dealing with AA and PP for about two months now, but I always seem to be going back to PP...so much so that I may just go to them consistently from now on.

[kenshapiro2002]

When I did the "Fuse Experiment" I put the relay back in fully. Also, I never had "K" disconnected...you said remove 49A...nothing about removing "K".

With just #8 removed the problem exists as soon as I pull the 4 way switch on...even with no ignition.

Should I now do the fuse experimetn with both 49A and K removed?

Took out all the fuses except #9. Everythiing was fine, so I started adding them back. The final result was that if I have all the fuses in except #8 and #11, all is quiet. When I add #11 or #8 all hell breaks loose again.

OK, just to clarify, you still have pins 49a and K disconnected? Keep them disconnected if you have found the issue still happens with them disconnected.

More clarification: When you added #11 with #8 removed, you also turned on the 4-way flasher?

With #11 in with #8 removed, is there a difference with 4-ways on and off?

[Spoke]

When I did the "Fuse Experiment" I put the relay back in fully. Also, I never had "K" disconnected...you said remove 49A...nothing about removing "K".

With just #8 removed the problem exists as soon as I pull the 4 way switch on...even with no ignition.

Should I now do the fuse experimetn with both 49A and K removed?

When you pull the 4-way switch with no ignition, are other loads on like lights? The 4-way when pulled powers the flasher w/o ignition on. That is the top switch in the 4-way flasher in the schematic. It gets power from #11 regardless of the ignition switch.

Yes, please try with both 49a and K removed. Just trying to eliminate variables. It will be interesting to see if your new relay reacts differently.

[FourBlades]

So fuse #8 controls the wiper, fan blower, lighter, and something else that I
can't read on the pelican diagram.

I would trace the wires for these and look for shorts with fuse #11 wires.
What happens when you turn the wipers or blower fan on, I think you mentioned
that somewhere before?

Maybe your cig lighter fried some wiring nearby and melted with it.

John

[kenshapiro2002]

If I pull the 4 way flasher by itself or with other loads (headlights, radio) on, that makes no difference. Either way the flasher goes nuts.

I'll go pull #49A and K and get back.

When I did the "Fuse Experiment" I put the relay back in fully. Also, I never had "K" disconnected...you said remove 49A...nothing about removing "K".

With just #8 removed the problem exists as soon as I pull the 4 way switch on...even with no ignition.

Should I now do the fuse experimetn with both 49A and K removed?

When you pull the 4-way switch with no ignition, are other loads on like lights? The 4-way when pulled powers the flasher w/o ignition on. That is the top switch in the 4-way flasher in the schematic. It gets power from #11 regardless of the ignition switch.

Yes, please try with both 49a and K removed. Just trying to eliminate variables. It will be interesting to see if your new relay reacts differently.

[kenshapiro2002]

What each fuse controls is different wherever I look! The wipers effect the problem as do all devices on the dash. I have no cigarette lighter.

So fuse #8 controls the wiper, fan blower, lighter, and something else that I
can't read on the pelican diagram.

I would trace the wires for these and look for shorts with fuse #11 wires.
What happens when you turn the wipers or blower fan on, I think you mentioned
that somewhere before?

Maybe your cig lighter fried some wiring nearby and melted with it.

John

[kenshapiro2002]

OK...removed 49A and K. No difference. Well, the actual light in the 4 way switch didn't illuminate, but the squawk was the same.

Thinking out loud...this all surfaced after I got the brake lights working again by adjusting the screw on the switch. It was wayyyyyyyy off. I've since tried unhooking the switch to no avail. Would returning the screw adjustment to it's way off position and plugging it back in change anything? Returning it to "as it was" before I adjusted it? Isn't unhooking it good enough? What, if anything, would returning it to its "pre-problem" condition do?

[Spoke]

OK...removed 49A and K. No difference. Well, the actual light in the 4 way switch didn't illuminate, but the squawk was the same.

Thinking out loud...this all surfaced after I got the brake lights working again by adjusting the screw on the switch. It was wayyyyyyyy off. I've since tried unhooking the switch to no avail. Would returning the screw adjustment to it's way off position and plugging it back in change anything? Returning it to "as it was" before I adjusted it? Isn't unhooking it good enough? What, if anything, would returning it to its "pre-problem" condition do?

Thanks. 49a also powers the light in the flasher so it would be expected that the lamp doesn't light.

I'm not sure that the brake light adjustment had anything to do with the flasher relay chattering. Since 49a and K are not connected, the only connections are power (49) and ground (31).

You ordered a new relay but if you wanted to try one other thing, you could do try temporarily replacing ground and power to the relay, one at a time.

Get a length of wire say 3 feet long and put a spade connector on it. Tie one end to a chassis point (screw or nut somewhere) and the other to pin 31. This will bypass the ground wire and essentially take the original wire out of the circuit. See if the chatter continues.

If the chatter continues with the new ground, then try the same thing for pin 49. For this test, connect 31 back to its brown ground wire, and connect 49 to the spaded wire. Carefully place the other end of the spaded wire in between the cold side of fuse 9 and its holder. Turn power on and see if it chatters.

Or just wait til tomorrow to try the new relay.

[kenshapiro2002]

Right now I'm ready to set it on fire. In fact, I already did that. In the hopes that the new relay will be the answer, I started putting some stuff back together. I put the three main instruments back in, as well as the extra temp gauge. Then I took out all of the light bulbs in the rear and front turn signals, brake lights, etc. Tested to see if the relay still squawked. Smoke started billowing out of the dash. I shut off the ignition and was deciding whether to roll it out of the garage for the upcoming car-b-que, because it seemed to be gathering gusto. Well...it stopped. One of the black/blue wires with a bulb on the end of it, for the speedo (which I took apart a week or so ago) had melted all the way down to the copper. This wire had also been spliced into to provide light for the extra temp. gauge. These speedo lights were the same ones that wanted to ignite the other night when they were touching the ignition switch, lit up, and started to cause anther 9/11 in my garage.

I'm very close to flat bedding the car to a "Pro" somewhere and just get my check book raped...I'll wait to see what, if anything, the new relay does, and start working on repairing my harness. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[Spoke]

Sorry to hear of your car-b-q. It is unfortunate but not the end game. Don't lose hope now. Wait until the new relay arrives then continue on. If it is only one wire that wire can be eliminated and a new wire run in its place.

This advice might be a bit late but it is a good rule to work by when toying with electrical systems: any time you are messing with a lot of wires or lowering the fuse panel, always disconnect the negative cable from the battery. When you have everything situated, then re-connect the battery.

[kenshapiro2002]

I hear you...easy to get lazy when you're running back and forth sixty times a day trying out something new...I've learned.

Sorry to hear of your car-b-q. It is unfortunate but not the end game. Don't lose hope now. Wait until the new relay arrives then continue on. If it is only one wire that wire can be eliminated and a new wire run in its place.

This advice might be a bit late but it is a good rule to work by when toying with electrical systems: any time you are messing with a lot of wires or lowering the fuse panel, always disconnect the negative cable from the battery. When you have everything situated, then re-connect the battery.

[kenshapiro2002]

CAR-B-Q MYSTREY[b] ...so what can be the reason for the blue/black wire on one of the speedometer lights frying? The light was installed in the speedo and the speedo had been reinstalled in the dash. Also had a previous lesser melting on the red/black coming off of fuse #12 (could have been from a PO).

Also, to replace the melted wire (blue/black for speedo light)...it's connected to the light socket, so I need to replace that as well. How does one go about that job?

[markb]

Black with a blue strip is the illumination circuit for the gauges. You probably had the headlight switch pulled, and something grounded one of the black/blue wires. It might be time to find an old wiring harness to rob for parts.

Don't give up, don't take it to a "Pro". You're really close to figuring this out, and since I've had the same problem on mine for 10 years (& had more than one Pro look at it) I'm interested to see how you fix yours.


BTW, there are more place than just PP & AA.

[Spoke]

For the melted wire, I think all the illumination lights are powered by the headlight switch. They all come off the light dimmer part of the headlight switch. Go there and look for the fried wire.

Follow the wire as best you can to make sure you have the right one. Cut off the bad part of the wire and tape up the dangling part. Just make sure you have the right wire.

About the light socket, without seeing a pic of it it's hard to tell if it's fried. Anyone with a few extra parts probably has a bunch sitting around for cheap or free. Put out a WTB: ad in the classifieds for one of these. I have a couple but am heading out for a biz trip for a week and don't have time to ship.

Once fixed, try the lights again to make sure nothing else is amiss before reassembly.

[kenshapiro2002]

Do tell...here or PM.

Black with a blue strip is the illumination circuit for the gauges. You probably had the headlight switch pulled, and something grounded one of the black/blue wires. It might be time to find an old wiring harness to rob for parts.

Don't give up, don't take it to a "Pro". You're really close to figuring this out, and since I've had the same problem on mine for 10 years (& had more than one Pro look at it) I'm interested to see how you fix yours.


BTW, there are more place than just PP & AA.

[Gint]

Do tell...here or PM.

Click the link in Mark's sig...

Edit: Not a link. Make that... call the number in Mark's sig.